Chinese cruise and anti-ship missiles

Engineer

Major
Not really. they could just pretend that it is fielded to mislead the US. PLA is very opaque
You are not reading properly. I said "if China fields", not "if China pretends to field". Therefore, my argument is still valid.

Those 1000 missiles are SRBM. DF-21 is MRBM. Far more costly.
So how much more costly? Give us the exact number here.

And they would really have to be deployed across china´s entire coast, which isnt small. Like the coming USA-SK demonstrates, they cant neglect their north and central coast regions.
Huh? You just mentioned DF-21 is a MRBM now you are saying it has to deployed across the entire coast? You are not making sense at all.
 

cloyce

Junior Member
China already has beaten the US in a few areas with ASAT being the prominent example.

:confused: Really? Enlighten me, I do know little about it.

Not safe? How's the weapon going to penetrate the layers of US ECM,AAW,F/A-18 fighters? What about a US counter strike..that's going to hurt.


Really? Have you forgotten about the USN ASW capablity which is also multi layered? You do realize that each USN CSG has one or two LA Class SSN in the Strike Group. In wartime you'd expect more LA class roaming the area.
Yeah, it's not safe. Because their position is threated.
When US forces fought against coutries like Iraq, they were in a safe position because the enemy has no means to threat their fleet.

I know about US multilayered defence, I did not said PLAN will achive their goals in 100% of cases. I just said that this will make their work easier.

And just the fact that US fleet is forced to defend themself using ECM and other means is going to ease the work to Type 022 stealth missile craft.
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Type 022 could rely completely on passive detection for the targeting,
and since it's stealth it will have higher penetration chances.


About US counterstrikes, I remember you F-18 has the half of range compared to DF-21.

The ASBM being so cost-prohibitive plus it doesn't work is a contradiction. If it doesn't work, why bother spending the money? Psychological effect? Then all you need to spend is for the shell not what the fantasy technology would actually cost. If it did work, there would be a budget to ensure effective deterrence and not for just a handful.

ASBM is very cost effective instead.
A missile has much less operating and maintainment costs compared to a aircraft.
By making a analogy to the Soviet Union, when US fielded GPS-guided cruised missile. URSS were very worried about it since they did not have an efficient counter weapon. So, in order to maintain the strategic balance, they fielded a lot of MiG-31 Foxhound.
The problem of using MiG-31 against cruise missile is that MiG-31 is big, it needs a crew who must be kept constantly trained, and it burns fuel at every training. It cost you a lot of resources just to keep it operative.

Few know about it, but the rise of the semi-conductor industry in US is one of the reason why URSS collapsed.


DF-21 is MRBM. Far more costly. And they would really have to be deployed across china´s entire coast, which isnt small. Like the coming USA-SK demonstrates, they cant neglect their north and central coast regions.

No. US fleet could move at 30 nodes at best ( just 50km/h ).
The DF-21 trucks can move at higher speed ( let's say 90+km/h ).
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Yeah, it's not safe. Because their position is threated.
When US forces fought against coutries like Iraq, they were in a safe position because the enemy has no means to threat their fleet.

What means will the PLA use to find the CSG? And the Iraqis certainly did have the ability to strike the US fleet. They simply chose not to do so. One of the reasons was US ECM was shutting down many of the Iraqi systems.

About US counterstrikes, I remember you F-18 has the half of range compared to DF-21.

As someone pointed out the US would strike first. And the USN & USMC F/18 rely on USAF tankers to extend their mission. Any military action in the Pacific would include USAF assets from Korea, Guam & Japan.

Type 022 could rely completely on passive detection for the targeting,
and since it's stealth it will have higher penetration chances.

The Type 22 FAC mission is in littoral waters. I doubt if they would go hundreds of miles at sea to hunt down a CSG.
 

cloyce

Junior Member
What means will the PLA use to find the CSG? And the Iraqis certainly did have the ability to strike the US fleet. They simply chose not to do so. One of the reasons was US ECM was shutting down many of the Iraqi systems.
Long range OTH radar network, AWACS, satellite network and in future UAVs.

No, Iraqis have no capability to strike CSG. Their airforce was just a joke.

As someone pointed out the US would strike first. And the USN & USMC F/18 rely on USAF tankers to extend their mission. Any military action in the Pacific would include USAF assets from Korea, Guam & Japan.
Korea and Japan, may not allow US forces to use their bases, in fear of retaliation.
Guam is a good base.
But I think you should look at this :
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Rand Study Suggests U.S. Loses War With China

In short, RAND said that, even in the best case situation, F-22s + tankers against chinese Flankers will result in a US defeat. Since, chinese could just avoid confronting F-22 and point directly against tankers, which are slow and vulnerable. Without tankers F-22 will not be able to go back to base. No second strike will be launched from Guam.

By the way, if you are going to use tankers from Guam, you better use F-22 instead of F-18. Since the latter has no significant advantage against chinese latest Flankers(J-11B).

The Type 22 FAC mission is in littoral waters. I doubt if they would go hundreds of miles at sea to hunt down a CSG.
They could push themself very well 1000km+ from the coast if is needed in time of war.
 

ZTZ99

Banned Idiot
Not safe? How's the weapon going to penetrate the layers of US ECM,AAW,F/A-18 fighters? What about a US counter strike..that's going to hurt.

The weapon will not have problems penetrating any fighter screens. It will fly past them and they could do absolutely nothing about it unless they feel like trying to suicide themselves by blocking it. Even then they would probably miss the missile shooting past them at mach 9. ECM and AAW will be the primary concerns. The AAW can be overwhelmed by the usual saturation attack method. Those Tico cruisers also have a limited number of SM-3's they carry. Each SM-3 loaded means one less SM-2 to defend against conventional ASCM attack. And only some Tico cruisers have been modified to carry SM-3's, not all of them, and none of the AB's. EW is usually underrated but in this case I'm not sure the carrier's AN/SLQ-32 EW suite can affect incoming missiles from overhead or has the range to affect missiles that target the carrier instead of its host ship if on another ship.
 
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Engineer

Major
What means will the PLA use to find the CSG? And the Iraqis certainly did have the ability to strike the US fleet. They simply chose not to do so. One of the reasons was US ECM was shutting down many of the Iraqi systems.
Talk about self contradictory statement! So let me get this straight; Iraqis were so superior that they could track CVBG which you claim China (not even former Soviet Union) could do, while being so inferior that their systems got shut down. I guess an argument doesn't need to make sense as long as it portraits US CVBG as invincible.

As someone pointed out the US would strike first. And the USN & USMC F/18 rely on USAF tankers to extend their mission. Any military action in the Pacific would include USAF assets from Korea, Guam & Japan.
And as I have pointed out before, China isn't going to sit and wait for an attack if it finds war is imminent -- when China knows it is going to get attacked anyway even if it doesn't fire the first shot. The only remote possibility where US might be able to achieve a first strike would be a total unprovoked all out attack during peace time. Otherwise, how are US forces going to penetrate the layers of China survillance systems, ECM, AAW, J-11 and J-10 fighters? How is the US going to find targets deep in the mainland when space assets have been crippled? And have you even taken in account of China's counter strike? That is going to hurt.
 

cloyce

Junior Member
For the moment, US navy has no effective countermeasure against DF-21.
By 2014, things may change. SM-3 Block IIA will be deployed in mass, it's compatible with MK-41 VLS system used on Tycos and Burkes. It's superior in performance. And very probably will be able to intercept ballistic missiles in the terminal phase, just like THAAD system does.
I may be wrong, but for what I know current SM-3 is optimized to intercept esoatmospheric ballistic missiles in mid-course phase. In terminal phase, a re-entry vehicle could reach even mach 20 speed.
 

ZTZ99

Banned Idiot
For the moment, US navy has no effective countermeasure against DF-21.
By 2014, things may change. SM-3 Block IIA will be deployed in mass, it's compatible with MK-41 VLS system used on Tycos and Burkes. It's superior in performance. And very probably will be able to intercept ballistic missiles in the terminal phase, just like THAAD system does.
I may be wrong, but for what I know current SM-3 is optimized to intercept esoatmospheric ballistic missiles in mid-course phase. In terminal phase, a re-entry vehicle could reach even mach 20 speed.

None of this information is new. Backing away from the trees to view the forest, it should be assumed that SM-3's will be able to attack the ASBM and that both Chinese and US military planners are working under this presumption.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Talk about self contradictory statement! So let me get this straight; Iraqis were so superior that they could track CVBG which you claim China (not even former Soviet Union) could do, while being so inferior that their systems got shut down. I guess an argument doesn't need to make sense as long as it portraits US CVBG as invincible.

I never stated that Iraq could track a CSG only that they could attack if they so chose. They did not. How would the find it? Not sure..but I do know the Iraqi AF did attack the USS Stark on May 17th 1987 with two Exocet antiship missiles fired from an Iraqi F-1 Mirage. Of course the defensive posture of the USN was much different that it is today. In my opinion the CIC of the Stark was unprepared nor where they expecting any attack from the Iraqi AF.

By the way in summer 1990 of Iraq had the 6th largest air force in the world. Not the best but still somewhat capable..

By the summer of 1990, the IQAF constituted the sixth largest air force in the world, with 750 fighter, bomber, and armed trainer aircraft, supported by 200 miscellaneous types, including an Iraqi-built airborne early warning aircraft derived from the Soviet IL-76 transport. Iraq's air force included the modern MiG-29 Fulcrum interceptor and air superiority fighter, the MiG-27 Flogger strike fighter, the MiG-25 Foxbat interceptor, the MiG-23 Flogger fighter-bomber, the MiG-21 Fishbed fighter, the Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot ground attack airplane, the Sukhoi Su-24 Fencer strike aircraft, the Sukhoi Su -7, -20 and -22 Fitter family of fighter-bombers, and the Tupolev Tu-16 Badger and Tu-22 Blinder bombers. Additionally, it had Chinese-made H-6 and J-7 aircraft, the Czech L-39 armed trainer, and French Mirage F-1 fighters. These carried a variety of Soviet and European air-to-air missiles, bombs, bomblet dispensers, and smart weapons such as the French-built AS-30L laser-guided weapon.

ps..I pray there is never a war between the US and China.. I like the tenacity & resilience of the Chinese people very much..
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Even as a layman, I can see that this kind of thread is becoming as Obsolete as a J6.

Surely now any comparison or potential struggle between the PRC and USA should be viewed on a macro scale and examine the full scope of each sides Battle Networks, - the range, the densities, the order of battle etc etc

Otherwise you might just as well discuss the individual merits of the mark one stone launched from the mark one arm.
 
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