Re: Chinese Daily Photos, Videos & News!!
plawolf, you've given a fine speech to the choir about how foreigners who criticise human rights injustices and call for political reform secretly hate China and don't want anything good for it. Congratulations.
Kindly cut the condescending attitude. If you have a point to make, how about you actually make it?
Let's look at the facts, democracy isn't perfect, but neither is a one party state. For example, how would it be easier to deal with the Euro crisis if the EU was a club of totalitarian despots or one-party states? It wouldn't be, and arguably it would be harder because all the leaders would be under even more pressure to "stand up" to the others or face rebellion at home.
From this response, it looks like you only have the vaguest idea about how the Euro crisis has been mismanaged to the current unholy mess that it is in.
I do not wish to get too sidetracked, so if you are interested in this subject, you can go read up on the background in your own time.
It is telling that when the chips were down, the EU forced out the Greek PM because he wanted to hold a referendum on the austerity measures the EU demanded Greece commit to, and replaced him with an unelected technocrat who could have been cast from the same mold as China's leaders.
It is also amusing that your hallowed markets cheered and rewarded Italy when their democratically elected President resigned, and another unelected technocrat took his place.
I would say that Wukan is a fairly small problem by itself, but the CCP seems incapable of resolving it without threatening to criminalise the protesters and lock up their leaders. Beijing's first reaction was to censor news of it. That's sweeping it under the carpet instead of trying to do something about it.
That is a load of baseless speculation that you are trying to pass off as facts. These are not facts. Just your own views.
Also, let's not forget that this is an article about what is happening in a town in China, not political reform.
Funny you didn't seem to seem to see it that way when you launched into your rant against China's one party system and told as multi-party democracy was the only hope.
Why don't you offer your views about what is happening and how you would deal with it? Also, what do you think the government in Beijing must do? This has been going on for a week or so, yet there has been no reaction - bar censorship - from Beijing. Do you think it's entitled to do nothing?
Ah, such an elementary trick to play. You cannot effectively argue with the points that I put forward so you wanna change the subject.
You were the one who was harping on about how China needed a multi-party system to deal with this issue, so how about you actually show us what you meant by that as well?
Your question also betrays your utter lack of thought about how best to deal with this issue.
If I was in charge, the first thing I would have done was to censor the news of this incident. Because that is the only way I, as the Central Government, would be able to step in and give these people the best chance of getting what they really want.
If the story had not broke, the government would have had much more leeway to give ground and compromise. But now that the eyes of the nation are focused on this village, the government has to also consider how their actions will look to the rest of the country, and that will significantly limit the scope of things that can now be offered on the negotiating table.
Also, it is completely nonsense to suggest that just because the few foreign reporters hanging around hotels haven't heard anything means Beijing isn't doing anything about this.
Now that the story is out, Beijing is almost certainly busy doing research to see what the cause of this stand-off is, and how the legal case of everyone involved stands.
And you know what, I will maintain that an independent judiciary with rule of law would have avoided this problem. Will anyone explain to me why I'm wrong on this, rather than make a generic complaint about whites poking their nose into other people's business?
So what happens when people show you how your fabled rule of law doesn't work so fantastically in real life? Are you going to just throw a trademark
'well the rule of law isn't perfect' line out there and move onto the next subject?
Because the rule of law is far from perfect. Again, you only need to look across at India who is supposed to have an independent judiciary. Hows that helping them with corruption, injustice and abuses of power?
Even the rule of law in developed countries like the US and UK are far far from perfect and is hardly an ironclad check against official abuses. Just ask those Occupy Wall Street protestors how well the rule of law was protecting them when The Law was pepper spraying them in the face.
Hell, the legal system of the US and UK are massively biased to the point where it is effectively two systems. One for the rich and one for the poor. The law doesn't look so awesome if you haven't got the cash to afford a good defense lawyer, and rich clients routinely get away with murder (all too often literally) or can win cases they would never had a chance of winning in court by bankrupting their plaintiffs with endless legal paperwork before the case ever goes to trial.
So far from bringing equality, a western legal system would actually almost certainly add to inequality because the rich and powerful can afford the best lawyers.
Yes, the residents of Wukan want help from the central government. But who else are they supposed to appeal to? No one, that's who. It's a choice between patriotically asking for help from Beijing, or admitting you've got no chance of getting anywhere and giving in/starving to death.
Swop 'Wukan' with 'Tottenham' and 'Beijing' with 'London' and would you still agree with that sentiment?
Many of the London rioters undoubtably thought that they had legitimate grievances that could not be properly addressed through the proper channels, so do you support their actions?
These people may well have suffered great injustice, for which they have my deepest sympathies and I hope that they can find justice, as any normal, moral person would.
However, the way they have gone about raising their issues and trying to pursue their interested cannot be condoned, just as the London riots were unacceptable behavior.
And like the London rioters, these people have gone about it all wrong, and the way these people have gone about this has massively damaged their cause.
It is telling that instead of trying to find out some facts like Finn, you immediately jumped on the side of these villagers to blame it all on Beijing. Yet on the issue of the London riots, you were unequivocal with your denunciations of the trouble makers and demanded stiff punishment iirc. Very consistent and rational behavior indeed.
That's a contradictory statement. If China's top leaders can't be held hostage by those powerful interests, they can reform whenever they like. If those forces can and will block reform, China's leaders are as toothless as any of their democratic counterparts. You can't have it both ways.
What are you talking about? It is not a matter of absolutes. China is in the process of reforming and improving. It takes time, but already, there have been many important laws passed on legal property protection.
The usual China bashers and haters never acknowledge the progress made, and only harp on about how far is left to go. It is a process, and if you rush it, things will go wrong. Or maybe that is exactly what the bashers and haters are secretly hoping for.
So when is the Beijing government going to ride to their rescue? Today? Monday?
Yes, I'll get right on the phone to President Hu and ask him.
What a pointless question.
By the way, what is the obsession with India in China? Seriously, get some perspective. According to Transparency International there are 75 countries in the world less corrupt that China. And they're not all tiny islands or first world countries.
There is no obsession, India just happens to be the closest example of what a China-sized country following all the rules and advice of the west looks like.
Funny you are so desperate to look at other countries because the reality on the ground contrast starkly to how you think things should be.
India has followed all of the rules and advice the west has set for them, the same ones you are insisting China cannot do without, yet it is worse off compared to China in almost every way measurable.
If you were a car dealer you would be a cowboy, and your advice would be a lemon.
And you might be surprised to find that some politicians who criticise China's political system are also in favour of free trade. David Cameron, for one. Or John McCain.
Since when did I ever claim otherwise? Are you resorting to strawman arguments already?
