Chinese Aviation Industry

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yes you're seeing new design from the state but that's because the old guard is retiring or passed. Those guys only saw other countries doing better most of their lives. The quickest way to success for them was to do what was already proven and seen successful by others.
 

Deino

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Chinese private aircraft maker. I wish there was a better angle to see this plane fully.
...
It's interesting how there are different design philosophies in China. Exports and companies not backed by the government seemed to be more in tune with modern and/or new design. Copying is more in tune with the government mentality. Outsiders think it's just because Chinese can't be original. No it's really the notorious Asian inferiority complex at work where they see anyone else doing better as the mark of success. So in the Chinese public's mind anything that looks like success is success. The government doing something new is not seen as successful. Which is why they follow the path of what has been successful as their success when they do it. The communists have to justify their authority over the people and won't do anything new because that's too risky. So they follow the model of proven success. As China becomes more affluent, we'll probably see more and more innovation and new designs.

I think one of us two is wrong, but as far as I know this is not a CHinese type but the

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... which is in fact an Austrian manufacturer of general aviation aircraft and motor gliders, which also has a large manufacturing facility somewhere else in the world. (
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Deino
 

Deino

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C919 Inches Toward Flight-Testing, ARJ21 Toward Upgrade

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I would love to see this image in full-size !! ... and even more the prototype and ist current status today !

Deino
 

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I think one of us two is wrong, but as far as I know this is not a CHinese type but the

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... which is in fact an Austrian manufacturer of general aviation aircraft and motor gliders, which also has a large manufacturing facility somewhere else in the world. (
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Deino

I thought that may be a possibility because it was too good to be true but where I got the pic from said it was from some aircraft maker group in Wuhu, China.
 
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Blitzo

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Yes you're seeing new design from the state but that's because the old guard is retiring or passed. Those guys only saw other countries doing better most of their lives. The quickest way to success for them was to do what was already proven and seen successful by others.

Err or maybe they're able to do new designs now because they needed the experience garnered from having incrementally improving existing designs.

What you describe as the "quickest way to success", should be translated to "giving the military the capabilities they needed, at cost and on time".
Choosing between a new original design versus incrementally improving a proven design is not a matter of whim, vanity, or ambition, it is a matter of need and technology available.
Now that the industry has reached a level where they are be becoming mature, we can see original clean sheet designs in some domains. But we are still seeing improvements of proven airframes; SAC is still producing flankers and will do so for years, and planes like Z-18 and Z-9 still trace back to super frelon and dauphin, Z-20 traces back to Blackhawk. This is a result of technology limitation and a result of PLA need. If the technology was able to meet the PLA need in time then we would see an original design. Or if the PLA need was not as urgent we may also see an original design.

It isn't the case that the current generation of designers are somehow innately more ambitious, it is a result of the technology and experience available to them due to the work of their forebearers allowing them to innovate.
IMO your bit about inferiority complex or whatever is off mark.

Innovation only comes from accumulated experience, it isn't wholly and only due to a "state of mind"
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Err or maybe they're able to do new designs now because they needed the experience garnered from having incrementally improving existing designs.

What you describe as the "quickest way to success", should be translated to "giving the military the capabilities they needed, at cost and on time".
Choosing between a new original design versus incrementally improving a proven design is not a matter of whim, vanity, or ambition, it is a matter of need and technology available.
Now that the industry has reached a level where they are be becoming mature, we can see original clean sheet designs in some domains. But we are still seeing improvements of proven airframes; SAC is still producing flankers and will do so for years, and planes like Z-18 and Z-9 still trace back to super frelon and dauphin, Z-20 traces back to Blackhawk. This is a result of technology limitation and a result of PLA need. If the technology was able to meet the PLA need in time then we would see an original design. Or if the PLA need was not as urgent we may also see an original design to justify their position in power. They maybe at the same level but that just shows how important perception is to the public's mind that they still need to make it look like it when they don't have to.

It isn't the case that the current generation of designers are somehow innately more ambitious, it is a result of the technology and experience available to them due to the work of their forebearers allowing them to innovate.
IMO your bit about inferiority complex or whatever is off mark.

Innovation only comes from accumulated experience, it isn't wholly and only due to a "state of mind"

There's an element out there that argues for copying even when its superficially only the outside. Why are there knock-off designer handbags and a market where people will buy them? It's because they want to be seen as successful. The people who make these bags aren't aiming to make a better bag. In the case of the Chinese military industries, they have to prove themselves to a government who has legitimize themselves by its citizens examples of success which in turn are their successes. Might not be monetary but in the end the same mental pay-off.

People say China's military copies. Superficially one can make that argument. Has anyone ever established every thing inside is a copy as charged? Is China's HJ-12 an exact copy on the inside of the Javelin? I suspect the components are different. It looks like the Javelin because that's the point to make it look like China has achieved a Western level of technology. Unlike aircraft where proven aerodynamic shaping is important, they didn't need to make the HJ-12 look nearly alike to the Javelin. Everyone outside will see it as a Javelin copy so why do it when it's going to be criticized? It's because this is all about conveying to the Chinese people that the communist government has achieved near parody to the West who the public sees as unarguably successful.
 
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Blitzo

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There's an element out there that argues for copying even when its superficially only the outside. Why are there knock-off designer handbags and a market where people will buy them? It's because they want to be seen as successful. The people who make these bags aren't aiming to make a better bag. In the case of the Chinese military industries, they have to prove themselves to a government who has legitimize themselves by giving people examples of success which in turn are their successes. Might not be monetary but in the end but same mental pay-off.

The rationale for wanting copied handbags is different to the military wanting "copied" fighter aircraft or helicopters.

Handbags, shoes, phones -- they're copied for their status symbols and trying to fake a brand.

Fighter airframes, helicopters, -- they're copied for their proven utility rather than their superficial appearances.


People say China's military copies. Superficially one can make that argument. Has anyone ever established every thing inside is a copy as charged? Is China's HJ-12 an exact copy on the inside of the Javelin? I suspect the components are different. It looks like the Javelin because that's the point to make it look like China has achieved a Western level of technology. Unlike aircraft where proven aerodynamic shaping is important, they didn't need to make the HJ-12 look nearly alike to the Javelin. Everyone outside will see it as a Javelin copy so why do it when it's going to be criticized? It's because this is all about conveying to the Chinese people that the communist government has achieved near parody to the West who the public sees as unarguably successful.

People call HJ-12 a javelin copy because externally it kind of looks the same. (One could say that for Type01 LMAT, Hyun-Gung as well)
They say that for FC-31, Y-20 too, even though they're all clean sheet designs. People can say that, and they would be wrong. Clearly they are all clean sheet designs, only sharing similar configuration to other products.
But I think you're also wrong in saying that the military is specifically choosing some designs because of a need to demonstrate that they have reached parity with the west. I've seen no evidence of that, and as an observer of the PLA I see them choosing pragmatism rather than superficiality. (Besides the HJ-12 missile looks a lot like Spike, MMP, Hyun-Gung, but I digress)

IMO you are way overestimating the weight of what original/unoriginal means to the PLA.
IMO it doesn't mean anything to them.

For some required urgent capabilities they go for developing proven designs, for some capabilities they go for new designs if the technology is there. It's pragmatism, common sense.

Why are they still developing the flanker airframe into J-16 and J-15 when they clearly have the technology to develop their own original native airframe of similar capability? Because it would be stupid to expend resources on a new airframe design when they have a proven one that can fulfill their needs already there.
Why are they going for Z-18, Z-20? Because the PLA needs helicopters urgently and if using a proven design can cut a few years off the development track then that is worth it.
Why are they continuing to develop the Y-9, derived from the An-12? Because the An-12 is a proven, rugged airframe, and they can use the same airframe but with new materials, avionics, and engines, to make a good aircraft.
Why are they going for Y-20 when they could just copy the Il-76 instead? Probably because the PLA have requirements that can't be fulfilled by the Il-76's airframe, such as the volume of cargo and weight, handling, etc.
Why did they develop J-20, when they could have tried to copy F-22 instead? Because the PLA had requirements that only J-20's configurations could fulfill. SAC's triplane offer was rejected for a reason.

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Basically, what I'm saying is that the military does not choose to develop copies of airframes because of "inferiority complexes". Nor do they choose original airframe designs because of wanting to demonstrate a "payoff" or that they are now "successful" or whatever.

They make those decisions based on capability and urgency requirements, the technology available to their industry and the cost of choosing one road versus another.
 
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no_name

Colonel
I would love to see this image in full-size !! ... and even more the prototype and ist current status today !

Deino

Slightly larger pic here, as well as link to the mag.

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edit: you may not want to actually click on the download link as my antivirus gave a warning.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The rationale for wanting copied handbags is different to the military wanting "copied" fighter aircraft or helicopters.

Handbags, shoes, phones -- they're copied for their status symbols and trying to fake a brand.

Fighter airframes, helicopters, -- they're copied for their proven utility rather than their superficial appearances.




People call HJ-12 a javelin copy because externally it kind of looks the same. (One could say that for Type01 LMAT, Hyun-Gung as well)
They say that for FC-31, Y-20 too, even though they're all clean sheet designs. People can say that, and they would be wrong. Clearly they are all clean sheet designs, only sharing similar configuration to other products.
But I think you're also wrong in saying that the military is specifically choosing some designs because of a need to demonstrate that they have reached parity with the west. I've seen no evidence of that, and as an observer of the PLA I see them choosing pragmatism rather than superficiality. (Besides the HJ-12 missile looks a lot like Spike, MMP, Hyun-Gung, but I digress)

IMO you are way overestimating the weight of what original/unoriginal means to the PLA.
IMO it doesn't mean anything to them.

For some required urgent capabilities they go for developing proven designs, for some capabilities they go for new designs if the technology is there. It's pragmatism, common sense.

Why are they still developing the flanker airframe into J-16 and J-15 when they clearly have the technology to develop their own original native airframe of similar capability? Because it would be stupid to expend resources on a new airframe design when they have a proven one that can fulfill their needs already there.
Why are they going for Z-18, Z-20? Because the PLA needs helicopters urgently and if using a proven design can cut a few years off the development track then that is worth it.
Why are they continuing to develop the Y-9, derived from the An-12? Because the An-12 is a proven, rugged airframe, and they can use the same airframe but with new materials, avionics, and engines, to make a good aircraft.
Why are they going for Y-20 when they could just copy the Il-76 instead? Probably because the PLA have requirements that can't be fulfilled by the Il-76's airframe, such as the volume of cargo and weight, handling, etc.
Why did they develop J-20, when they could have tried to copy F-22 instead? Because the PLA had requirements that only J-20's configurations could fulfill. SAC's triplane offer was rejected for a reason.

----

Basically, what I'm saying is that the military does not choose to develop copies of airframes because of "inferiority complexes". Nor do they choose original airframe designs because of wanting to demonstrate a "payoff" or that they are now "successful" or whatever.

They make those decisions based on capability and urgency requirements, the technology available to their industry and the cost of choosing one road versus another.

I sort of agree with what all you said. I'm not saying the Chinese government has an inferiority complex. I'm saying the public does. All governments, regardless if they're democracies or not, have to justify their hold on power or they face revolt. The Chinese people look at the West as having "gotten it right" because they're number one in the world. If one is perceived as having gotten it right, people are going to follow that path to success. The HJ-12 may perform less or better than the Javelin or whatever else. But they're still going to make it look like it because it's gotten all the positive advertisement. Why does Beijing beg to be a part of the International Space Station when it's clear it will never happen? China is going to build it own space station but that's secondary because they want to be a part of something established as a great achievement by the world so they can cash that in on their own citizens because that's how they see success. I bring up the Asian inferiority complex because that's where it comes from. Whether or not people in the government are inflicted, they're still have to appeal to that part in the public in order to legitimize their hold on power.
 
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