Chinese Aviation Industry

Hendrik_2000 said:

What are you implying that China cannot do it without the participation of American company ?
Remember China start building the civilian aerospace literally from scratch So it make sense to use the american component since they have longer experience with civilian aircraft But AVIC insist on having joint venture in China making those component.
More of commercial consideration since the international airliner are more familiar with American or European component

But China has developed Y20 using their own component since western avionic is banned for use in the military and it fly with no problem

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I'm not implying. It's the truth. And the Y-20 uses Russian engines. Again, China can't do it.

"Chinese industry has been trying to develop the WS-18 engine for heavy subsonic aircraft. The type could power Y-20 airlifters and H-6K bombers. But Hebei “is running into trouble with development,” Alert 5 reported. Work on the new turbofan is “half-suspended as the company researches into new materials.”

“Another alternative engine for the Y-20, the WS-20, will also enter limited production starting from 2024,” Alert 5 explained. But for now, the Y-20 and H-6K fly with Russian D-30 turbofans."

gadgetcool5 said:

I'm not implying. It's the truth. And the Y-20 uses Russian engines. Again, China can't do it.

"Chinese industry has been trying to develop the WS-18 engine for heavy subsonic aircraft. The type could power Y-20 airlifters and H-6K bombers. But Hebei “is running into trouble with development,” Alert 5 reported. Work on the new turbofan is “half-suspended as the company researches into new materials.”

“Another alternative engine for the Y-20, the WS-20, will also enter limited production starting from 2024,” Alert 5 explained. But for now, the Y-20 and H-6K fly with Russian D-30 turbofans."

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China hasn't done it. The WS-20 and CJ1000 engines are progressing along nicely. They're more recent projects than WS-10. Can't do and haven't done are very different things. China is doing it and already completed most of the tasks. WS-20 and CJ-1000 are working engines they're in final development cycles at the moment already. WS-18 is not a high profile project. I don't even know what that is.

Also "working engines" lol like Chinese engines don't work now? Is that why the WS-10 has so far had 10 successful years of service and several variants developed and in service? Been flying single engined on J-10 since last year? That sounds like it's better than simply a "working engine". The way language is used in these articles... hilariously cheap and delusional. Sorry to break it to you but China's got turbofans absolutely mastered now. At least for low bypass. Only the USA and Russia are in the same league of being able to design and build high thrust, low bypass turbofans. High bypass engines are still in catch up but WS-20 and CJ-1000 are both ambitious high performance high bypass turbofans with a wide range of scalability and applicability.

Engines are difficult and take time for material tech to catch up to the design engineering. China's engine tech absolutely left India's behind in the dust even though India was ahead or on equal ground in the 1990s. India has still not managed to build the 30 year old project of getting the Tejas a F404/RD-33 class engine in the Kaveri and have since abandoned it despite massive western support and parts supply. In this time China's developed WS-10 from studying a CMF56 core. Contrary to popular belief WS-10 is nothing like an AL-31 except in overall size AND been using it for over 10 years now.

gadgetcool5 said:

I'm not implying. It's the truth. And the Y-20 uses Russian engines. Again, China can't do it.

"Chinese industry has been trying to develop the WS-18 engine for heavy subsonic aircraft. The type could power Y-20 airlifters and H-6K bombers. But Hebei “is running into trouble with development,” Alert 5 reported. Work on the new turbofan is “half-suspended as the company researches into new materials.”

“Another alternative engine for the Y-20, the WS-20, will also enter limited production starting from 2024,” Alert 5 explained. But for now, the Y-20 and H-6K fly with Russian D-30 turbofans."

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Is Alert 5 a reliable source? The WS18 is a licensed variant of the D30KP turbofan, why would the company need to research into new materials?

ougoah said:

Sorry to break it to you but China's got turbofans absolutely mastered now. At least for low bypass. Only the USA and Russia are in the same league of being able to design and build high thrust, low bypass turbofans.

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You forgot UK and France, but that's a topic for another thread and day.

dankris said:

You forgot UK and France, but that's a topic for another thread and day.

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I wrote high thrust in this class. EJ200 and M53 are the highest UK and French engines. SNECMA's M88 is a more sophisticated and modern engine compared to the M53 but it only outputs 50KN dry and 75KN afterburner. Compared this to WS-10A's 85KN dry and 130KN afterburner. These are old WS-10 figures from more than 10 years ago. More modern WS-10 variants are estimated to be similar or higher in thrust than AL-31FN series 3 and better.

So no I wouldn't put the UK and France in the high thrust league even though I'm sure they'd have no problems building one. They don't have the need to justify the costs but they have the industries and the technology for it. Here it's a case of not doing isn't the same as not being able to do. So far only China, US, and Russia have low bypass turbofans in the F110 class and above. Both Russia and China have used their AL-31 and WS-10 series to get thrust that approach F119 levels but have not fielded any engines of this class/generation or the even more powerful F135. EJ200 is 60KN - 90KN.

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latenlazy said:

You do realize you’re comparing a mid sized engine with a large sized engine right? With the technology used in the M88 and the EJ-200 France/the UK/Germany could put together a F119 class engine if they wanted to. They simply don’t have the need because they don’t procure heavy weight fighters as part of their force planning.

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I do realise and if you read my post, it's been pointed out albeit expressed differently. It's however not a simple task of enlarging the dimensions of everything by 1.x so no they can't just "use" the M88 and EJ200 technology. That's like saying China can just use the WS-10 technology to build a F135 class engine with similar thrust performance enhancements.

If higher thrust was simply the difference between mid size and larger sized and larger yet, then what's the challenge? Sorry but so far only the US, China, and Russia have proven high thrust, low bypass turbofans mastered. While France and UK have the industries and technology to do this but not necessarily the need.

Another milestone reached
Passenger numbers of China's first turbo-fan regional passenger jetliner ARJ21 exceed 1 million

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An excellent video showing AG600 skim the surface and then ascend.

ougoah said:

I do realise and if you read my post, it's been pointed out albeit expressed differently. It's however not a simple task of enlarging the dimensions of everything by 1.x so no they can't just "use" the M88 and EJ200 technology. That's like saying China can just use the WS-10 technology to build a F135 class engine with similar thrust performance enhancements.

If higher thrust was simply the difference between mid size and larger sized and larger yet, then what's the challenge? Sorry but so far only the US, China, and Russia have proven high thrust, low bypass turbofans mastered. While France and UK have the industries and technology to do this but not necessarily the need.

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My point is that there is no challenge. The reason the UK and France don’t build larger military grade engines is because they don’t have a need for them. They don’t make heavy weight fighters. Remember, the UK and France build engines that go on the largest wide body commercial planes. Up scaling the size of the engine is not a challenge for them. That alone should tell you that the absence of these engines does not exclude their technological capabilities from meeting the same or better levels.