Chinese Aviation Industry

The fact of the matter is if China wanted to reverse engineer A-320s they would get sued to kingdom come, China on the other hand had actually received a license to build their own su-27s and I believe there isn't a limit, just limits in parts.

In4ser said:

The fact of the matter is if China wanted to reverse engineer A-320s they would get sued to kingdom come

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How? and Why?

Especially, since the reverse engineered A-320 will spruced be up with domestically designed components e.g. the seats can be completely different from western designs.

And after all it won't be called A-320

The fact is nobody in the world can "prove" that it was reverse engineered. It is a subject matter of argument.

In any case, my focus is capability and feasibility ... not legality

In4ser said:

China on the other hand had actually received a license to build their own su-27s and I believe there isn't a limit, just limits in parts.

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Btw. a side question .... this should in no way restrict the export of reverse engineered Su-27s ... to say, Pakistan. Will it?

Hmm.. The engine is sure cause for trouble. Otherwise, exports would have been more feasible.

One thing I don't understand... why would china wanted to reverse engineered A320? if they need it, they can buy whole bulk of it. You do not simply goes in and reverse engineered a product that already had patentship on it, unless you just want to limit market to china domestic market only, which had no needs for a big aircraft like the A320.

I really do not think that China is that far behind in composite material (I might be wrong though). But part of J-10 and J-11B are composite material too.

As to China ranking below 20 in aerospace industries... my response is still - SO WHAT?

During the late 40s and early 50s when Japan started mass production of Japanese automobile, what is their rank as compared to gaints like Rovers, Ford, etc. And now where is Toyota and Honda? I mean come on! For the last time, everyone need to start at some place. China started late, but is going at the right pace and the progress is astonishing.

I mean, she is the third country capable of sending men to outerspace, they have their own satellite programs, their ballistic missiles have achieve international (even global) range, they have very modern ships... and believe it or not, their J-10 is up there, although not the best in class, but still incredible, and soon, I believe she will be fielding the WZ-10 in mass number.

Unfounded worries and stuff like that is sometime quite irritating. When you choose only to look at the bad side of things, everything will be louser and useless and ranking bottom of the line, when obviously, it is not.

bingo said:

How? and Why?

Especially, since the reverse engineered A-320 will spruced be up with domestically designed components e.g. the seats can be completely different from western designs.

And after all it won't be called A-320

The fact is nobody in the world can "prove" that it was reverse engineered. It is a subject matter of argument.

In any case, my focus is capability and feasibility ... not legality



Btw. a side question .... this should in no way restrict the export of reverse engineered Su-27s ... to say, Pakistan. Will it?

Hmm.. The engine is sure cause for trouble. Otherwise, exports would have been more feasible.

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If China wants to earn respect and move away from the imitation stereotype, then it probably should start doing its own stuff from scratch. Its one thing for a country to do that for defense its another for a business doing for profits.

I don't think China will export J-11s, otherwise there would have be talks and discussions with Pakistan already, best they can hope for a is J-10 imo.

bingo said:

On the contrary, there is bloody demand for A-320 .... even with nations who don't buy Su-27.

As I said before, the business case for A-320 is many times stronger. Even Phillipines and Namibia would want cheaper A-320 .... although they won't buy a cheap reverse-engineered Su27.

I come to you point about costs of reverse-engineering. How much is the cost savings between (i) designing a Su-27 from scratch, and (ii) actual costs of reverse engineering a Su-27.

And more importanty, : Is it cheaper to reverse-engineer A-320, OR to re-design / develop a plane like A-320 from scratch.

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An A320 knock off won't be seen well upon in the international market -- cell phones, electronics, and cars may have some leeway in which price may take precedence over quality, but no country will buy an aicraft with the "copied in china" label tagged on it (okay maybe except for the really, really down in the dumps states); governments won't allow their airlines to purchase potentially dangerous knockoffs (and if one argues "well they can clone an A320 with GOOD QUALITY," well then if they can do that, why not just build their own A320 equivalent? The experience gained will far eclipse the small cutting of cost)

There's also the matter of national pride and image -- china's trying to remake itself as a reliable, good quality developer and will not allow the copying of such a high class product such as a passenger jet to be tarnished by blatant copying on their part.

Bltizo said:

An A320 knock off won't be seen well upon in the international market -- cell phones, electronics, and cars may have some leeway in which price may take precedence over quality, but no country will buy an aicraft with the "copied in china" label tagged on it (okay maybe except for the really, really down in the dumps states); governments won't allow their airlines to purchase potentially dangerous knockoffs (and if one argues "well they can clone an A320 with GOOD QUALITY," well then if they can do that, why not just build their own A320 equivalent? The experience gained will far eclipse the small cutting of cost)

There's also the matter of national pride and image -- china's trying to remake itself as a reliable, good quality developer and will not allow the copying of such a high class product such as a passenger jet to be tarnished by blatant copying on their part.

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Ok.... I'll buy that.

Selling to domestic chinese airlines ... would not have been that difficult, though.

You see, the savings can be huge .... those duopolies are easiliy charging a 100% margin.

A cheaper A-320 type (and off course reliable etc.) can reduce air travel costs by a great amount. Air Travel Cost = 50% Fuel + 35-40% capital cost (of plane).

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Exporting J-11 should not be an issue .... save the engines problem.
(reverse engineered Mig-21s were also exported. Called J-7, I think)

Re Airbus 320: China is such a good customer, that Airbus has built an assembly line in the country, that will, in time, source many of it's subassemblies in China, for cost reasons.Think of the parts made by FACC. So many Chinese will gain experience in Airbus manufacture.

bingo said:

Ok.... I'll buy that.

Selling to domestic chinese airlines ... would not have been that difficult, though.

You see, the savings can be huge .... those duopolies are easiliy charging a 100% margin.

A cheaper A-320 type (and off course reliable etc.) can reduce air travel costs by a great amount. Air Travel Cost = 50% Fuel + 35-40% capital cost (of plane).

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Exporting J-11 should not be an issue .... save the engines problem.
(reverse engineered Mig-21s were also exported. Called J-7, I think)

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The J-7 was a licensed copy with no limitations on export. The J-11's license prohibits export IIRC. During the 90's Russia did make a lot of hamfisted contracts for weapons exports but they did manage to get this from their Su-27SK deal with the PRC.

The thing is anything reverse engineered, can't be proven to have been reverse engineered. Can you ?

Officially, China doesn't need to accept that either J-7 or J-11 are reverse engineered .... we can say so, informally, in these forums ... which means nothing.

And no license agreement with Russia can prevent China from selling any product of indigenous R&D such as J-11.

You can't sell Su-27, sure.
But nothing can prevent sale of J-11. Period.

Off course, there could be problem for future ... so that Russia will refuse to sell hi-tech to China in the future. Other than that, there is no problem.

(Not a big problem .... since China won't be planning to buy further "Su-27" type things from Russia any more, Right).

Those who still call for China to 'reverse engineer a A320' really need to do some basic homework on China's aviation industry before more comments based on wishful thinking and wiki links.
C919 is already designed and publicly marketed to have overall efficiency of at least 15% better than A320 and B737, and it is exactly this segment of market it is targeting. Why in the world would Comac want to now build a A320 clone when it is already on the way to a better C919 ?