Chinese ATGM discussion
- Thread starter Broccoli
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Thats an impressive development. NLOS missile systems are going to replace significant portion of the conventional artillery on the modern battlefield. Since, modern warfare is basically war against enemy transportation, and thats great accuracy is required
Second important advantage of such systems is, dropping the need for massive supply chains aimed at supplying artillery with ammuntion. Enemy targets are being neutralized faster and with much less resources. China has been proven very wise with similar developments. Only three countries, have NLOS missisle systems adopted in theirs armed forces
Second important advantage of such systems is, dropping the need for massive supply chains aimed at supplying artillery with ammuntion. Enemy targets are being neutralized faster and with much less resources. China has been proven very wise with similar developments. Only three countries, have NLOS missisle systems adopted in theirs armed forces
HJ-10 in action. Too bad there is no photo of target impact...
I am doubting the authenticity of these two pictures.
- As far as I know each HJ-10 carrier only has a single mast such as the one 2nd from right slightly obscured by the dust cloud. So unless multiple pairs of HJ-10 carriers drove together in the exact same angle most of the pairs should be fake. Only the 5th and 6th from left in the foreground may be real based on the angle of the missile.
- Three of the HJ-10 carrier pairs in the group of four in the far left background have a distinct halo around them which doesn't match the background.
- The tank in the center foreground is so much smaller than the tanks in the upper right background it doesn't make sense even if they are China's largest and smallest tanks. The smallest HJ-10 carrier pair 4th from left supposedly in the background but should be closer to the camera yet is so much smaller than the tanks in the upper right background.
Thoughts?
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Yes, unfortunately someone took photoshop and copy pasted the crap out of those pictures.
Look at the lowest launchers on left of those pictures, and you can see that there was in fact two carriers side by side, with the front of the second partially visible through the dust.
The guy only copied the first vehicle, but also included both the launchers, thus giving the impression the missile carrier had two launchers.
Pretty much all the imagines with two launchers but only one head is a bad PS.
SinoSoldier
Colonel
Rumor has it that the AKD-10 is capable of penetrating 1800 mm of rolled homogeneous armor.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Sino Javelin good explanation but no real shot just animation. Autonomous , Fire and forget LOBL , Direct or top attack . Can be fired from confined space. Tandem warhead. Smaller and lighter than HJ8,9 serires.4 Km range for TV seeker.1100 mm armored steel penetration. Any one know if it in the service of PLA now. How is it compare to Javelin and Spike?
The Hongjian-12 ("红箭-12" transliterated as "Red Arrow-12") is a third generation, man-portable, fire-and-forget infrared homing anti-tank missile of China.
The HJ-12 is a modern, third generation anti-tank missile developed by China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO). The HJ-12 is a fire-and-forget system utilizing Lock-On Before Launch (LOBL) and is capable of being fired within buildings and bunkers due to its soft launch system. Once launched, it will home autonomously onto its target, allowing the operator to immediately take cover or reload to engage another target. The warhead uses a tandem shaped charge design with an estimated penetration capability of up to 1,100 mm (43 in) of rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) after penetrating explosive reactive armor. When facing non-armored point targets, bunkers and fortifications, the missile can be fitted with either high-explosive or thermal effect warheads. Its fire-and-forget technology will reduce the number of anti-tank operators needed on a battlefield, which lowers probable casualties. When engaging enemy tanks and armored vehicles, the HJ-12 aims to destroy the top of its targets, the more vulnerable point. The HJ-12 is China's first portable anti-tank missile, increasing the ability of the People's Liberation Army Ground Force to have more modern and mobile infantry forces. It is intended to enable China to match up with anti-tank missile developments made by Western and Russian armies, like the FGM-148 Javelin and AT-13 Saxhorn-2. The missile is also available for export to armies in developing countries that would need to contend with third-generation main battle tanks, but the number of potential buyers is likely small due to its higher cost.
Launcher
The launcher unit of the Red Arrow 12 seems to be similar to the Israeli Spike missile system and the American FGM-148 Javelin. The launch missile container is mounted on a tripod with its fire control unit. The firing sight is mounted on the left of the missile container. The missile launch unit can also be mounted on combat vehicle.
Missile
The Red Arrow 12 missile system adopts an IR imaging seeker for all-weather day and-night use, and an equally-effective daytime model using TV imaging seeker is also available. The TV version has a maximum range of 4,000 m, while the IR version has only a maximum range of 2,000 m. The HJ-12 missile tube is 1250 mm in length and 170 mm in diameter. The missile itself measures 1050 mm x 127 mm with a total wingspan of 560 mm and weighs 17 kg. The Red Arrow 12 missile has tandem HEAT warhead to neutralize various targets as tanks, bunkers, small-boats and helicopters. The warhead is able to penetrate 1,100 mm of armour protected by explosive reactive armour.
Combat use
The Red Arrow 12 uses the missile technology fire-and-forget, the HJ-12 can guide itself autonomously towards the designated target. Once the gunner has launched the missile, it can autonomously guide itself to the target, and the gunner can immediately take cover or reload to engage another target. The Red Arrow 12 missile system features both arched top-attack and direct-attack projectiles and tandem HEAT warhead to neutralize various targets, e.g. tanks, bunkers, houses, small-boats and slow-flying helicopters. It adopts soft-launch design and can be fired from inside buildings or bunkers. The Red Arrow 12 could be carried and fired by one soldier with a total weight of 22 kg, It adopts soft-launch design and can be fired from inside bunkers.
Accessories
The whole launch missile system is fitted with a CLU (Command Launch Unit) including the missile launch unit, battery, tripod and the thermal sight mounted to the left side.
od explanation but no real test video just animation
The HJ-12 is a modern, third generation anti-tank missile developed by China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO). The HJ-12 is a fire-and-forget system utilizing Lock-On Before Launch (LOBL) and is capable of being fired within buildings and bunkers due to its soft launch system. Once launched, it will home autonomously onto its target, allowing the operator to immediately take cover or reload to engage another target. The warhead uses a tandem shaped charge design with an estimated penetration capability of up to 1,100 mm (43 in) of rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) after penetrating explosive reactive armor. When facing non-armored point targets, bunkers and fortifications, the missile can be fitted with either high-explosive or thermal effect warheads. Its fire-and-forget technology will reduce the number of anti-tank operators needed on a battlefield, which lowers probable casualties. When engaging enemy tanks and armored vehicles, the HJ-12 aims to destroy the top of its targets, the more vulnerable point. The HJ-12 is China's first portable anti-tank missile, increasing the ability of the People's Liberation Army Ground Force to have more modern and mobile infantry forces. It is intended to enable China to match up with anti-tank missile developments made by Western and Russian armies, like the FGM-148 Javelin and AT-13 Saxhorn-2. The missile is also available for export to armies in developing countries that would need to contend with third-generation main battle tanks, but the number of potential buyers is likely small due to its higher cost.
Launcher
The launcher unit of the Red Arrow 12 seems to be similar to the Israeli Spike missile system and the American FGM-148 Javelin. The launch missile container is mounted on a tripod with its fire control unit. The firing sight is mounted on the left of the missile container. The missile launch unit can also be mounted on combat vehicle.
Missile
The Red Arrow 12 missile system adopts an IR imaging seeker for all-weather day and-night use, and an equally-effective daytime model using TV imaging seeker is also available. The TV version has a maximum range of 4,000 m, while the IR version has only a maximum range of 2,000 m. The HJ-12 missile tube is 1250 mm in length and 170 mm in diameter. The missile itself measures 1050 mm x 127 mm with a total wingspan of 560 mm and weighs 17 kg. The Red Arrow 12 missile has tandem HEAT warhead to neutralize various targets as tanks, bunkers, small-boats and helicopters. The warhead is able to penetrate 1,100 mm of armour protected by explosive reactive armour.
Combat use
The Red Arrow 12 uses the missile technology fire-and-forget, the HJ-12 can guide itself autonomously towards the designated target. Once the gunner has launched the missile, it can autonomously guide itself to the target, and the gunner can immediately take cover or reload to engage another target. The Red Arrow 12 missile system features both arched top-attack and direct-attack projectiles and tandem HEAT warhead to neutralize various targets, e.g. tanks, bunkers, houses, small-boats and slow-flying helicopters. It adopts soft-launch design and can be fired from inside buildings or bunkers. The Red Arrow 12 could be carried and fired by one soldier with a total weight of 22 kg, It adopts soft-launch design and can be fired from inside bunkers.
Accessories
The whole launch missile system is fitted with a CLU (Command Launch Unit) including the missile launch unit, battery, tripod and the thermal sight mounted to the left side.
od explanation but no real test video just animation
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I was trained to operate Spike in 1999 and here is my 2 cents worth.
From the info available, the missile at 17kg is heavier than Spike with equal performance. Our spike canister weigh 14kg and we have to either manpad or hand carried 2 rounds. In HJ 12 case, I would add another 1kg for the tube and I don't think it practical to carry 2x 18kg canisters to run around because IMO, 30kg (on top of other equipments like rifle, magazines etc) was already near the limitation of any soldier.
On the CLU part, HJ12 comes integrated with thermal imaging which is different for spike CLU. Thus it more compact overall than Spike CLU + thermal imaging sight.
One of my main complaint for Spike CLU was the controller handgrip was ergonomically too big for an average Asian Palm . Not very easy to press and maintain the Main control bar (alongside the front part of handgrip) while the thumb still needs to reach out to other buttons.
From the info available, the missile at 17kg is heavier than Spike with equal performance. Our spike canister weigh 14kg and we have to either manpad or hand carried 2 rounds. In HJ 12 case, I would add another 1kg for the tube and I don't think it practical to carry 2x 18kg canisters to run around because IMO, 30kg (on top of other equipments like rifle, magazines etc) was already near the limitation of any soldier.
On the CLU part, HJ12 comes integrated with thermal imaging which is different for spike CLU. Thus it more compact overall than Spike CLU + thermal imaging sight.
One of my main complaint for Spike CLU was the controller handgrip was ergonomically too big for an average Asian Palm . Not very easy to press and maintain the Main control bar (alongside the front part of handgrip) while the thumb still needs to reach out to other buttons.
regarding the CLU, it looks like the CLU/imaging sight for HJ-12 shown at this year's Zhuhai has been substantially reduced in size/weight compared to what was shown two years ago.
