Chinese air to air missiles

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
If H-6 has a bomb capacity of ~9 Tons based on Tu-16 stats, then it could lob up to 40 PL-15s at ~230 kgs each, that does not seem like a low number at all. A wing of 5 or so H-6s can lob up to 200 PL-15s, or 50 J-20's worth of munitions if using internal bay only. However a supersonic capable Tu-22 esq bomber will be more suited for this kind of bomb truck role.

9 tons is probably for the older H-6 variants. The newer variants, i.e. H-6K, H-6J and H-6N should be able to carry a higher tonnage of payloads.

Let's take the H-6K for example.

We do know that each H-6K can carry up to 6 KD-20 LACMs. Each KD-20 weighs ~2 tons. This means that theoretically speaking, each H-6K is capable of carrying up to ~12 tons of payload.

For the PL-15 with an individual weight of ~230kg, that means each H-6K can carry up to ~50 PL-15s.

Therefore, a flight of 6 H-6Ks (for reference) is capable of lobbing up to ~300 PL-15s against the enemy warplane formation.

Of course, we have to remember that carrying up to its maximum payload means a significantly-reduced combat radius for the H-6K. Therefore, for a WestPac scenario, I don't really envision the H-6Ks to carry PL-15s up till its maximum payload limit, unless absolutely necessary.

However, even with only half the maximum amount, ~150 PL-15s streaking towards you and your flightmates (as the enemy) at Mach 4 is still going to be terrifying, anyhow.

Yes but you're both ignoring the structural problems with holding 50x or x number of missiles like that. Some loads can be carried at certain points etc etc. Payload capacity does not translate directly in this way. Number, centre of gravity, shape etc are all important parameters to consider. No chance a H-6 even with payload capacity of 15T can hold anywhere close to 50 PL-15 AAMs even if volume and aerodynamics isn't an issue to consider. You can't place loads along the fuselage and wing wherever you please. I'd say even with a lot of work on modifying a dedicated missile truck H-6 variant, it would cap out around 20 PL-15s at best. Absolutely a terrible platform for this purpose even if we ignore volume problem and less than ideal launch kinematics.

That got me thinking, the extreme end point of faster+higher will eventually just become a rocket. Can tactical ballistic missiles be outfitted with AA submunitions? That would probably be impractically expensive, but it'll also be almost impossible to intercept and will cripple tankers/AWACs staying far in the rear provided you can provide appropriate tracking and targetting.

Why not do an air launched version of this. Essentially this is just a drone missile truck if we make it air launched. So many ways to improve BVR attrition performance of integrated airborne platforms. All have long been looked into since the 1960s by every major player. None are quite as realistic back then as they are now. B-52 and B-21 taking these missile truck roles only recently.

PLA may want H-20 (possibly JH-xx) would no doubt be open to these roles but I suspect there are far superior ways to improve BVR attrition than this method which I'd like to call mechanical brute forcing. It's simply too resource intensive when next generation weaponry should be (and no doubt are) aimed at eroding opposition networks and their sensor + kill chains while preserving your own. This is where the real fight is lost and won. Suffice to say, it is 90% electromagnetic domain and cyber.

What's being discussed wrt micro missiles and missile trucks are Cold War era paradigms kinda like thinking about how to improve your bow and arrow when machine guns are a thing on the battlefield (while machine guns aren't well known by the wider public and certainly not well published). While USAF and PLAAF are no doubt investing in these concurrently, these players would have long since understood the true hierarchy of importance in every dimension of modern BVR combat and acted accordingly.

AAM truck concept is a bad concept. A bomber-like aircraft will always be at a huge disadvantage against a fighter when it comes to engagement envelope. A bomber is always engagable by the fighter before the other way around happens.

That is just a large SAM. Missiles like the 40N6 are huge and fly at a quasiballistic trajectory.

Exactly. Almost a conservation of energy law type of thing. On balance, it is useful but in relatively limited situations. If you make a mach 2+ capable supercruising bomber somehow and with enough capacity to lob dozens of AAMs at medium range, that platform is far better used to attack opposition key targets. The role of BVR really should be for fighters, possibly larger and heavier fighters going "beast mode" at most to strike airborne key targets like tankers and AWACS. Heavy tactical strike aircraft and tactical bombers really should be aimed at far more strategically important targets. Having them become dedicated missile trucks to win some BVR attrition role means one less being used on airfields, radar sites, carriers etc etc. Which are more important and serve as critical long term supporting structures?

It's quite clear why these major airforces haven't gone down this missile truck route. Although loyal wingman drones obviously are a new variable in the BVR attrition calculus and an exciting field.
 
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test1979

Junior Member
Registered Member
Loading a lot of PL-15 with h-6 is a strange idea,
This means that the h-6 and the fighter have the same range of missiles, both of which are 200km.
In this case, the fighter plane occupies the launch position, and the ability to lock the target is far stronger than that of the h-6.
If h-6 is equipped with large surface-to-air missiles such as HQ-9B, as an air defense position that can move at any time,
Cooperating with the guidance of kj-500 to attack the target of 500km, this seems to be a design with tactical value.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes but you're both ignoring the structural problems with holding 50x or x number of missiles like that. Some loads can be carried at certain points etc etc. Payload capacity does not translate directly in this way. Number, centre of gravity, shape etc are all important parameters to consider. No chance a H-6 even with payload capacity of 15T can hold anywhere close to 50 PL-15 AAMs even if volume and aerodynamics isn't an issue to consider. You can't place loads along the fuselage and wing wherever you please. I'd say even with a lot of work on modifying a dedicated missile truck H-6 variant, it would cap out around 20 PL-15s at best. Absolutely a terrible platform for this purpose even if we ignore volume problem and less than ideal launch kinematics.
Yes, hence theoretical.

Exactly. Almost a conservation of energy law type of thing. On balance, it is useful but in relatively limited situations. If you make a mach 2+ capable supercruising bomber somehow and with enough capacity to lob dozens of AAMs at medium range, that platform is far better used to attack opposition key targets. The role of BVR really should be for fighters, possibly larger and heavier fighters going "beast mode" at most to strike airborne key targets like tankers and AWACS. Heavy tactical strike aircraft and tactical bombers really should be aimed at far more strategically important targets. Having them become dedicated missile trucks to win some BVR attrition role means one less being used on airfields, radar sites, carriers etc etc. Which are more important and serve as critical long term supporting structures?

It's quite clear why these major airforces haven't gone down this missile truck route. Although loyal wingman drones obviously are a new variable in the BVR attrition calculus and an exciting field.
AAM truck concept is a bad concept. A bomber-like aircraft will always be at a huge disadvantage against a fighter when it comes to engagement envelope. A bomber is always engagable by the fighter before the other way around happens.
Well, technically, any aircraft that can carry and lob multiple missiles can be called "missile trucks" - From FH-97A-type loyal wingman UCAVs to B-1B-type strategic bombers.

While bombers certainly aren't as fast, agile and maneuverable as fighters, which definitely make bombers more vulnerable compared to fighters - There is also the option to not position bombers at places and/or situations where they are less protected and more exposed to enemy fire, whenever possible. This goes the same for any other type of warplanes that aren't fighters, e.g. refueling tankers, AEW&C, EW, ELINT, SIGINT aircrafts, etc.

Besides, judging by:
1. The continuous development of AAMs with ever-increasing ranges and speeds (PL-15, PL-17, PL-21 etc),
2. The growing proliferation of platforms and systems which allow multiple nodes and sensors to be spread across the battlefield, plus
3. The ever-upgrading networked capabilities that allow the guiding of missiles across different platforms towards their intended targets -
I'd say that bombers (or just about any other missile truck-capable warplanes) playing the role of AAM trucks has actually become more viable than ever before.

Then, speaking of speed - For one, unless China can procure Tu-160s and/or Tu-22Ms from Russia, or obtain the permission/ToT for the production of Tu-160 and/or Tu-22M on Chinese soil - Then China must make do with whatever she has.

And with no conclusive evidence on whether JH-XX is even a thing (my guess is more towards no) - Until H-20 can enter service with the PLAAF, H-6K/J/Ns are the only ones China can rely upon as large-sized missile trucks.

In the meantime, while being able to lob missiles at Mach 1.5 or 2 certainly is better for extending missiles' strike range than lobbing missiles at Mach 0.8-0.9 - With similar analogy, lobbing missiles at Mach 0.8-0.9 is still far, far better than launching missiles at 55 km/h (ships) and even at stationary (TEL).

Furthermore, considering that the US, Russia and China are putting huge focus on pursuing subsonic VLO bomber platforms rather than supersonic bomber platforms right now - I don't really think that focusing on speed alone really will allow us to holistically view the general picture on whether the missiles lobbed from warplanes can travel further or not.

There is one critical factor of determining missile range other than speed, i.e. altitude.

Lets' say that two bombers of the same model flying at the same speed, launching missiles of the exact same model and specifications - With one flying at 10000 feet and the other flying at 40000 feet - Assuming similar rate of descend and ignoring air resistance (typical high school exam questions kek), which missile will be able to stay aloft in the air for longer periods of time - And thus, travel for longer distances?

Then, there's also the factor of air thickness, which varies accordingly to altitude. This correlates to the following:
1. How much energy is needed for the missile to achieve the designed cruising speed after leaving the weapon pylon/rack;
2. How much energy is needed for the missile to maintain the heading and speed as the missile encounter varying air resistance while flying at different altitudes;
3. How much energy is needed for the missile to conduct maneuvers in order to avoid terrain and enemy defenses while maintaining the speed and momentum as best as possible,
etc etc.

All of the above correlates to the amount of fuel onboard the missile needed to achieve each of the objectives, therefore affecting the probable range of the missiles as well.

TL;DR - There are more factors to think about than speed.
 
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tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Actually now that I think about it, JH-7 with its 9 ton payload is much more suited for this bomb truck role than h-6, it has high speed (>1.5 mach), high payload (~9 tons), high altitude, 6 hardpoints which you can probably mount at minimum 12 double to a quad pack of 24 missiles and it also already have integration with a lot of AA missiles so its not out of the question to mount pl-15s and future pl-21s.

It's anti ground role won't be needed until the air war is over anyhow, so using it as a bomb truck would be a good use of resources.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Guys … IMO this is now more than enough of these most speculative what-if-like discussions!

Let‘s cone back to the topic, which is „Chinese AAMs“ and stop discussing how many AAMs a H-6 could carry and if this is a useful idea.
 

by78

General
A J-16 firing a PL-10.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
It was predicted that the west will run out of missiles one week after hostility started. What about China? Well they are better prepared like the post above said China just reveal an automated production line of PL 15 missile. According to this video a new and extended range of the said missile is in the work Click in CC for English subtitles. This missile will be a nightmare for Western jets

The PL-15 air-to-air missile is considered as one of the most important PLA assets to shift air power balance between US and China. China recently released a short video of the world's most advanced air-to-air missile, the PL-15 air-to-air missile assembly line. This video indicates that China now has a mass-production of PL-15 capability. The timing of release of this video is thought to be very sensitive to the current situation in south china sea and taiwan strait, which could intend to send a strong message to the US. Reportedly China has been developing a new version of PL-15 with a strike range up to 300 or 400 km. It is believed that the current version of PL-15 air-to-air missile is one generation ahead of the air-to-air missile currently equipped in the US air force. Most importantly, this clip is to reveal China's most advanced auto production lines and its capability.

 

antiterror13

Brigadier
It was predicted that the west will run out of missiles one week after hostility started. What about China? Well they are better prepared like the post above said China just reveal an automated production line of PL 15 missile. According to this video a new and extended range of the said missile is in the work Click in CC for English subtitles. This missile will be a nightmare for Western jets

The PL-15 air-to-air missile is considered as one of the most important PLA assets to shift air power balance between US and China. China recently released a short video of the world's most advanced air-to-air missile, the PL-15 air-to-air missile assembly line. This video indicates that China now has a mass-production of PL-15 capability. The timing of release of this video is thought to be very sensitive to the current situation in south china sea and taiwan strait, which could intend to send a strong message to the US. Reportedly China has been developing a new version of PL-15 with a strike range up to 300 or 400 km. It is believed that the current version of PL-15 air-to-air missile is one generation ahead of the air-to-air missile currently equipped in the US air force. Most importantly, this clip is to reveal China's most advanced auto production lines and its capability.


Just wondering whether the chips inside PL-15 and others use advanced lithography node (less than 14nm). My understanding is that all chips in Chinese weapon system are produced 100% locally and with 100% local components

So @Hendrik_2000 , in your opinion how many PL-15s can be produced in a month maximum? and in your opinion how many PL-15 in PLA service, and how many produced a year ?

It is tricky to determine how many to produce advanced weapon systems, if too many, it will get obsolete in the same time, if it is too few, what happen if the war breaks out
 
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Just wondering whether the chips inside PL-15 and others use advanced lithography node (less than 14nm). My understanding is that all chips in Chinese weapon system are produced 100% locally and with 100% local components
Don't think any weapons systems in any military around the world uses chips made by even 14nm nodes. I would think for military grade chips, 90nm+ would be far more likely.
 
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