China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Discussion continued in this thread due to the risk of derailing the initial thread (H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)).



Regarding the development of An-124/C-5-class next-generation large airlifter for the PLAAF, other than @还是捣蛋's claim early this year, I don't think anyone else has further mention about it.

However, if and when there is a need to develop a larger-sized airlifter for the PLAAF to complement and replace the Y-20, one of the most important requirements for said large airlifter must include significant improvement on the size of the cargo compartment.

深秋不是鸡腿子 and @没有脖子的平原 on Bilibili jointly made this highly informative video, discussing about China's next-generation large airlifter::
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In particular, from 05:48 to 09:19, the video compares the sizes of cargo compartments of:
1. Il-76: 20.00m long x 3.45m wide x 3.40m high.
2. Y-20: >20.00m long x ~4.00m wide x ~4.00m high.
3. C-17: 25.96m long x 5.49m wide x 3.96-4.10m high.

And by using these PLA land vehicles to represent the different vehicle size categories for ease of comprehension:
1. Small-size: CSK181 MRAP, which is 5.65m long x 2.12m wide x 2.38m high.
2. Medium-size: VN1 APC, which is 7.80m long x 3.00m wide x 3.20m high.
3. Large-size: HT-233 radar vehicle, which is 15.00m long x 3.05m wide x 3.95m high, plus HQ-9 launcher vehicle, which is 13.00m long x 3.05m wide x 3.84m high.
4. Extra large-size: Type 22 missile boat which is 42.20m long x 12.25m wide x 13.80m tall (included as a joke)

Continuing by doing some rough Tetris, and here're the results:
1. For small-size (CSK181):
- Il-76 can carry 3x;
- Y-20 can carry 3x; and
- C-17 can carry 6x (2 rows of 3x each).
2. For medium-size (VN1):
- Il-76 can carry 3x;
- Y-20 can carry 3x; and
- C-17 can carry 3x.
3. For large-size (HT-233 and HQ-9 launcher):
- Il-76 can carry none (too big);
- Y-20 can carry 1x; and
- C-17 can carry 1x.

So, here's the analysis:
1. While the Y-20 certainly can carry 6x CSK181 based on payload weight capacity alone, yet the smaller width of the Y-20's cargo compartment compared to the C-17's means that those extra payload weight capacity available for the Y-20 is wasted;
2. The Y-20 is able to carry the HT-233 and HQ-9 launcher, but only barely when taking height into account; and
3. Due to the insufficient height of the cargo compartment of the Il-76, the payload weight capacity of the Il-76 means nothing as it is incapable of fitting both the HT-233 and the HQ-9 launcher inside of it.

Therefore, the key point being that for China's next-generation large airlifter to supplement and replace the Y-20, the dimension of the cargo compartment must be expanded compared to the Y-20, with particular focus on the width and height of its cargo compartment in order to fit wider and taller PLA vehicles that are expected in the future (such as radar and launcher vehicles for China's mid-course/terminal ABM system) - And without closely approaching or crossing right into the territory of the C-5 & An-124's very large airlifters.

My own very-rough recommendation for the cargo compartment of China's next-generation large airlifter:
- Length can be extended to 25-28 meters;
- Width should be extended to 5.0-5.5 meters; and
- Height should be extended to 4.1-4.3 meters.

In the meantime, does anyone know the notional dimension of the cargo compartment on the proposed Y-20-F100?

Last but not least, just for the sake of sideline comparison, here're the cargo compartment dimensions of:
1. C-5: 37.0m long x 5.8m wide x 4.1m high.
2. An-124: 36.5m long x 6.4m wide x 4.4m high.
3. An-225 (RIP): 43.4m long x 6.4m wide x 4.4m high.
lyman2003 , that Huawei guy and few other accounts also mentioned C-5/AN-124 equivalent platform under development..

Zhu Qian, head of AVIC's large aircraft development office, he gave interview to 'ChinaDaily' during Zhuhai air show 2016. In addition, China will develop transport jets that are even larger than the Y-20, like the US' Lockheed C-5 Galaxy and former Soviet Union's Antonov An-225 Mriya. i think he meant AN-124..

IMHO, if ever Xian proceed for super heavy airlifter like C-5/AN-124, they will use Y-20 as based model. will reduce cost and can use existing supply chain. you just need to design large Y-20. just like AN-225 developed from AN-124.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
lyman2003 , that Huawei guy and few other accounts also mentioned C-5/AN-124 equivalent platform under development..

Zhu Qian, head of AVIC's large aircraft development office, he gave interview to 'ChinaDaily' during Zhuhai air show 2016. In addition, China will develop transport jets that are even larger than the Y-20, like the US' Lockheed C-5 Galaxy and former Soviet Union's Antonov An-225 Mriya. i think he meant AN-124..

IMHO, if ever Xian proceed for super heavy airlifter like C-5/AN-124, they will use Y-20 as based model. will reduce cost and can use existing supply chain. you just need to design large Y-20. just like AN-225 developed from AN-124.

did you ever check the Y-20 vs the An-124 in its dimensions and cross section? The An-225 is indeed a bigger development based on a longer An-124 with a dramatically widened wing and tail, but basically they are the same especially in cross-section… as such you cannot make just a larger Y-20 by „just need to design large Y-20. just like AN-225 developed from AN-124.“

But I heard such rumours recently too, however what engine should be used ?
 

lcloo

Captain
did you ever check the Y-20 vs the An-124 in its dimensions and cross section? The An-225 is indeed a bigger development based on a longer An-124 with a dramatically widened wing and tail, but basically they are the same especially in cross-section… as such you cannot make just a larger Y-20 by „just need to design large Y-20. just like AN-225 developed from AN-124.“

But I heard such rumours recently too, however what engine should be used ?
How much can China learned from the engines of Boeing 747 belonged to Air China? They have been operating 747 from 1980s so they must have been very familiar with the engines.

Can they come out with an equivalent engine (55,000 to 60,000 lbf) within 10-15 years, using the experiance gained from WS-20's dvelopment.
 

ZachL111

New Member
Registered Member
How much can China learned from the engines of Boeing 747 belonged to Air China? They have been operating 747 from 1980s so they must have been very familiar with the engines.

Can they come out with an equivalent engine (55,000 to 60,000 lbf) within 10-15 years, using the experiance gained from WS-20's dvelopment.
It's likely they could, I'd imagine their CJ-2000 engine will be out by that point. They are aiming for a 78k lbf demo in 2023, but I doubt they would be production ready until 2030-2035, likely when the CR929 comes out. I'd also imagine they could scale up a WS-20 style engine, to match what they need. Incremental production stages could also allow them to get a prelim CJ-2000 variant for military purposes specifically, which could take 5-7 years. They have a few options tbh.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
How much can China learned from the engines of Boeing 747 belonged to Air China? They have been operating 747 from 1980s so they must have been very familiar with the engines.
Air China and Air China cargo have operate both variants B-747-400/B-747-8..

i just don't understand your question. you seriously think, China need to examine old engines of 747. that era has been over.

WS-20 maximum take off thrust is 35,000-36,000 lbf with front fan diameter of 2.1mm.

if you follow my old posts, Shenyang Liming working on 25 tons variant of WS-20.

2015 academic paper.

academic paper in 2015. They are developing an engine equivalent to tf39 thrust (based on ws20...jpg

Translated version

translated (4).jpg

@Deino sir if this project materialize, then engines will be WS-20's powerful variant or successor..

my source told, Liming working on two high bypass turbofan engine projects.

and please don't confuse with CJ series. CJ-1000/CJ-2000 strictly for commercial use.
 

ZachL111

New Member
Registered Member
Air China and Air China cargo have operate both variants B-747-400/B-747-8..

i just don't understand your question. you seriously think, China need to examine old engines of 747. that era has been over.

WS-20 maximum take off thrust is 35,000-36,000 lbf with front fan diameter of 2.1mm.

if you follow my old posts, Shenyang Liming working on 25 tons variant of WS-20.

2015 academic paper.

View attachment 116856

Translated version

View attachment 116857

@Deino sir if this project materialize, then engines will be WS-20's powerful variant or successor..

my source told, Liming working on two high bypass turbofan engine projects.

and please don't confuse with CJ series. CJ-1000/CJ-2000 strictly for commercial use.
What Sunny/I said is also true, you need a milspec version of the CJ-2000 (my words on this), as the CJ-2000 isn't military (his words).
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just some two cents.

We know that -
1. COMAC C919 uses 2x CJ-1000A with thrust of ~28200 lbf, or ~125 kN.
2. COMAC C929 uses 2x CJ-2000 with thrust of ~78000 lbf, or ~347 kN.
3. Xi'an Y-20B uses 4x WS-20 with thrust of ~36000 lbf, or ~160 kN.

For comparison -
1. Boeing C-17 uses 4x PW2000 with thrust of ~40440 lbf, or ~180 kN.
2. Lockheed C-5M uses 4x F138-100 with thrust of ~51600 lbf, or ~230 kN.
3. Antonov An-124 uses 4x D-18T with thrust of ~51600 lbf, or ~230 kN.

Based on @sunnymaxi's info, the 25-ton derivative WS-20 will have a thrust of ~55980 lbf, or ~249 kN.

Unless the C-5/An-124-class large airlifter that China is working on right now is some kind of a next-gen type airlifter that outclasses all current airlifters in service right now, a turbofan engine with a thrust-range that evolves around ~78000 lbf or ~347 kN sounds rather overpowered.

Otherwise, China might as well use the ~78000 lbf or ~347 kN turbofan engines to power the An-225-class super airlifter, i.e. by using 4x of them instead of the 6x D-18Ts on the original An-225 (RIP).
 
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lcloo

Captain
Air China and Air China cargo have operate both variants B-747-400/B-747-8..

i just don't understand your question. you seriously think, China need to examine old engines of 747. that era has been over.

WS-20 maximum take off thrust is 35,000-36,000 lbf with front fan diameter of 2.1mm.

if you follow my old posts, Shenyang Liming working on 25 tons variant of WS-20.

2015 academic paper.

View attachment 116856

Translated version

View attachment 116857

@Deino sir if this project materialize, then engines will be WS-20's powerful variant or successor..

my source told, Liming working on two high bypass turbofan engine projects.

and please don't confuse with CJ series. CJ-1000/CJ-2000 strictly for commercial use.
I was not refering to the engine of 1980s, just that Air China has been using 747 since then. Since president Xi is still using 747 from Air China as his presidential jet to make state visits to other countries, thus the 747 engine in question should be the latest version that are on President Xi's 747 or 747-8.

747-8 is using the same family of engine as 787, which is General Electric GEnx, 66,500 lbf. 787-10 is using a more powerful version of 76,100 lbf.
 
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ZachL111

New Member
Registered Member
Just some two cents.

We know that -
1. COMAC C919 uses 2x CJ-1000A with thrust of ~28200 lbf, or ~125 kN.
2. COMAC C929 uses 2x CJ-2000 with thrust of ~78000 lbf, or ~347 kN.
3. Xi'an Y-20B uses 4x WS-20 with thrust of ~36000 lbf, or ~160 kN.

For comparison -
1. Boeing C-17 uses 4x PW2000 with thrust of ~40440 lbf, or ~180 kN.
2. Lockheed C-5M uses 4x F138-100 with thrust of ~51600 lbf, or ~230 kN.
3. Antonov An-124 uses 4x D-18T with thrust of ~51600 lbf, or ~230 kN.

Based on @sunnymaxi's info, the 25-ton derivative WS-20 will have a thrust of ~55980 lbf, or ~249 kN.

A ~78000 lbf or ~347kN turbofan engine for the C-5/An-124-class large airlifter sounds rather overpowered, in comparison. Might as well use said engine to power a An-225-class super airlifter, i.e. by using 4x of them instead of the 6x D-18Ts on the original An-225 (RIP).
Question just for my sanity, is it more standard for us to refer to the 929 as the CR929 or the C929? I know Russia is likely pulling out of the project,
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, or rather getting dropped from it, and it used to be called formally the CRAIC CR929. It's being called the COMAC C929 though now more often, as I can see from media, both English and Chinese.

This may seem like a niche question, just wondering what is a better reference.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Question just for my sanity, is it more standard for us to refer to the 929 as the CR929 or the C929? I know Russia is likely pulling out of the project,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, or rather getting dropped from it, and it used to be called formally the CRAIC CR929. It's being called the COMAC C929 though now more often, as I can see from media, both English and Chinese.

This may seem like a niche question, just wondering what is a better reference.
Considering how it has become increasingly evident that China will proceed with the project mostly alone, I'd go with the COMAC C929 designation. Easier to remember and mention, too - But that could just be me.
 
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