China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

Deino said:

Calm down ... with the WS-20 the C919 will surely be able to fly but it takes times, money and even more with the WS-20 it won't reach its performance parameters since it is an older generation engine. As such, to be competitive, they need to wait for the CJ1000A

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People are calm.

And involvement of all those foreign parts was a mistake. China hoped to gain some market share in EU and USA by using these parts to instill some confidence and increase ease of access to spare parts for end users. However, this was futile. COMAC is blacklisted and FAA will not give any certificate to a Chinese airplane in this surreal political environment.

As Y-20 proves, almost all subsystems in C919 can be produced in China one way to another and focusing on these is better than trying to integrate foreign subsystems. COMAC should not repeat Huawei's mistakes.

crash8pilot said:

Definitely a possibility. That said LEAP engines aren't the only foreign parts on the C919 that would hinder it from being weaponized. It'd take COMAC a couple of years to indigenize these components and work out the kinks from the C919... by which time XAC would've developed the experience and expertise with the Y-20 to spin off AEW, tanker, ECM, or other military variant. The only realistic military application I can see for the C919 right now is for VIP airlift... or at a stretch some sort of C4ISR platform.

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I disagree. As you said, in 4-5 years almost all systems can be indigenized. C919 will be ideal for everything you listed but tanker.

foxmulder said:

I disagree. As you said, in 4-5 years almost all systems can be indigenized. C919 will be ideal for everything you listed but tanker.

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Why wait 4-5 years when the WS-20 powered Y-20 is on the cusp of being ready to answer the PLA's strategic tanker (we've already seen prototypes) and AEW needs?? Plus its not like the PLA are dissatisfied with their Y-8/9 AEW + ECM + ASW platforms since they're still being pumped out in droves at Hanzhong, and they'll probably continue to serve the PLA for the next decade and a bit... by then there'd almost certainly be a better fitting and more readily available replacement platform than the C919.

As Denio said, you need to calm your horses. Yes western components on the C919 could eventually help win market share outside of Asia, but more importantly China has no experience or expertise producing commercial airliners whatsoever. COMAC is trying to make up half a century's worth of commercial airline production experience within a decade or so, going at it alone without input from foreign experts would be akin to the Great Leap Forward where China hoped to become an industrial power through unproven backyard blast furnaces which produced nothing but scrap metal and angry masses. Yes China has managed to catch up by a lot through the ARJ21 and the C919, but there's still much work to be done before COMAC is on level footing with the likes of Airbus and Boeing. In any case you're getting way off topic thread.

crash8pilot said:

Why wait 4-5 years when the WS-20 powered Y-20 is on the cusp of being ready to answer the PLA's strategic tanker (we've already seen prototypes) and AEW needs?? Plus its not like the PLA are dissatisfied with their Y-8/9 AEW + ECM + ASW platforms since they're still being pumped out in droves at Hanzhong, and they'll probably continue to serve the PLA for the next decade and a bit... by then there'd almost certainly be a better fitting and more readily available replacement platform than the C919.

As Denio said, you need to calm your horses. Yes western components on the C919 could eventually help win market share outside of Asia, but more importantly China has no experience or expertise producing commercial airliners whatsoever. COMAC is trying to make up half a century's worth of commercial airline production experience within a decade or so, going at it alone without input from foreign experts would be akin to the Great Leap Forward where China hoped to become an industrial power through unproven backyard blast furnaces which produced nothing but scrap metal and angry masses. Yes China has managed to catch up by a lot through the ARJ21 and the C919, but there's still much work to be done before COMAC is on level footing with the likes of Airbus and Boeing. In any case you're getting way off topic thread.

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I am calm mate. lol. Thanks for concern.

For the record though, *after* you respond, writing "off topic" warnings at the very end is very insincere and looks like an attempt to silence people. Title is "China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft" so do not see what is off topic. Anyways..

The reason is simple. Y-20 is huge and if you read my post calmly* I said everything *but* tanker . For other roles C919 is perfect, Y-20 sized plane is just a waste and far from being the optimum. As you said there is y-9 so waiting 4-5 years is not an issue in my opinion.

foxmulder said:

Title is "China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft" so do not see what is off topic.

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I agree, the topic isn't Chinese Aviation Industry. My answer was in correspondence to your reply to Denio:

foxmulder said:

And involvement of all those foreign parts was a mistake. China hoped to gain some market share in EU and USA by using these parts to instill some confidence and increase ease of access to spare parts for end users. However, this was futile. COMAC is blacklisted and FAA will not give any certificate to a Chinese airplane in this surreal political environment.

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foxmulder said:

As you said there is y-9 so waiting 4-5 years is not an issue in my opinion.

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First and foremost 4-5 years is an overly optimistic expectation - despite tremendous political will and financial backing, a more realistic timeframe would be 8-10 years (basing this purely from the sheer amount of complicated foreign parts from avionics, thrust reversers, fuel pumps, electrical generation, wing and engine anti/deicing.... etc that need to be indigenized+integrated+tested on a commercial level before it even becomes available for military use). I know the aviation industry in China is a lot further along than it once was, but case and point it took almost two decades to indigenize the Flanker.... And well the C919, which might I add is a blank sheet design, only had its first flight a couple years ago. There's no way COMAC catches up with Boeing and Airbus in short time without outside help, working with western partners is not a mistake.

Secondly let's be *pessimistic* and say that the Y-9 has an airframe life of 10 years... If we did indeed work with your timeframe of 4-5 years when the C919 becomes available for weaponization, well quite frankly majority of the Y-9s in the PLA's inventory haven't even reached their midlife. Sounds like an awful waste of resources replacing something that still provides utility and does the job the PLA requires from it. Just saying the evidence points to the contrary of the PLA seeking alternative solutions (especially the C919) to their airborne special mission needs... Not when droves of Y-9s and Y-20s are being pumped out in Hanzhong and Yanliang.

crash8pilot said:

I agree, the topic isn't Chinese Aviation Industry. My answer was in correspondence to your reply to Deni0

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First and foremost 4-5 years is an overly optimistic expectation - despite tremendous political will and financial backing, a more realistic timeframe would be 8-10 years (basing this purely from the sheer amount of complicated foreign parts from avionics, thrust reversers, fuel pumps, electrical generation, wing and engine anti/deicing.... etc that need to be indigenized+integrated+tested on a commercial level before it even becomes available for military use). I know the aviation industry in China is a lot further along than it once was, but case and point it took almost two decades to indigenize the Flanker.... And well the C919, which might I add is a blank sheet design, only had its first flight a couple years ago. There's no way COMAC catches up with Boeing and Airbus in short time without outside help, working with western partners is not a mistake.

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But most of them have been built in China by joint venture between China and foreign supplier granted it is license arrangement The way it work is the licensor withheld difficult to design part from the licensee say software or some control unit.

The C919 program has been going for some time now It start in 2011. so the indigenization has been going for some time , Factory has been built , worker has been trained, special machinery, CNC etc has been running, Technician and engineer has been working solving the problem. It is not like they have to start from the scratch. What I said the technology has been transfer except the critical unit that the licensor withheld and must be imported. I saw German liebher built the landing gear in Chinese Factory

But they can be reverse engineer in emergency. China is expert at this they broke the firing software of Flanker MKK allowing it to fire Chinese missile.
China has broad base aerospace know how from their military program So there are research institution, industry, skill people and Research university, million of engineer well verse in aerospace industry
Yeas I don't see 4 or 5 years is pie in the sky

The Comac C919 is a developed by Chinese aircraft manufacturer . The development program was launched in 2008. Production of the began in December 2011, with the first prototype being ready on 2 November 2015 and having its on 5 May 2017. First commercial deliveries of the aircraft are expected in 2021

GE Aviation forms joint venture with Chinese aerospace company to compete for C919 jetliner avionics​

BEIJING, 15 Nov 2009. GE Aviation Systems in Grand Rapids, Mich., is forming a joint-venture commercial aviation avionics company with Aviation Industry Corp. of China (AVIC) in Beijing to offer integrated, open architecture avionics and services for future commercial aircraft.

Nov 15th, 2009



(Yicai Global) Dec. 7 -- American conglomerate Honeywell International has set up a Chinese joint venture to build flight control systems for the China-made C919 passenger plane.

The New Jersey-based firm and state-backed Aviation Industry Corp. of China have formed the new company in Xi'an, Shaanxi province, with USD60 million, state-backed news site The Paper reported. The pair will build a 10,000 square meter production base there to research, develop, assemble and conduct flight simulations for the C919 control kit.

foxmulder said:

I disagree. As you said, in 4-5 years almost all systems can be indigenized. C919 will be ideal for everything you listed but tanker.

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A310 MRTT has entered the chat.
IAI G550 Tanker has entered the chat.

Look if the PLA wants to militarize 919 or 929 they will do it. Foreign parts or not. We know this. It’s established. How? Boeing 737 tail numbers 4052 and 4053.
Even if it’s just to VVIP fly the PLA will eventually buy 919. The rest is who knows. Jet based platforms have advantages in range, Higher altitude and speed vs turboprop but they have advantages in loiter and short take off.

crash8pilot said:

I agree, the topic isn't Chinese Aviation Industry. My answer was in correspondence to your reply to Denio:




First and foremost 4-5 years is an overly optimistic expectation - despite tremendous political will and financial backing, a more realistic timeframe would be 8-10 years (basing this purely from the sheer amount of complicated foreign parts from avionics, thrust reversers, fuel pumps, electrical generation, wing and engine anti/deicing.... etc that need to be indigenized+integrated+tested on a commercial level before it even becomes available for military use). I know the aviation industry in China is a lot further along than it once was, but case and point it took almost two decades to indigenize the Flanker.... And well the C919, which might I add is a blank sheet design, only had its first flight a couple years ago. There's no way COMAC catches up with Boeing and Airbus in short time without outside help, working with western partners is not a mistake.

Secondly let's be *pessimistic* and say that the Y-9 has an airframe life of 10 years... If we did indeed work with your timeframe of 4-5 years when the C919 becomes available for weaponization, well quite frankly majority of the Y-9s in the PLA's inventory haven't even reached their midlife. Sounds like an awful waste of resources replacing something that still provides utility and does the job the PLA requires from it. Just saying the evidence points to the contrary of the PLA seeking alternative solutions (especially the C919) to their airborne special mission needs... Not when droves of Y-9s and Y-20s are being pumped out in Hanzhong and Yanliang.

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? We are not aligned on what we are discussing at all! You are talking about matching A320 Neo (to beat 737Max, flying safely is enough for now ! ) for civilian/profit use, I am talking about using C919 as a platform for PLAAF and PLAN special role aircrafts. So, C919 can be 90% as "good" compared to A320 and it will be still great for these roles.

As I wrote, Y-20 and Y-9 even AG600 have all the subsystems you listed produced in China. Know/how to develop/produce all these is readily available in China. If you think this can take more than 5 years you are underestimating all these planes flying right now and the engineers who designed them.

*Only* weak point is the engine rest is all in order, period. And if WS-20 is any reliable and delivers the power stated for Y-20's specifications it can equip a C919 for military missions.

About specialty plane requirements... C919 will not replace the "older" Y-8/9 already in service. It will increase the numbers. Compared to USA (even compared to Japan) what China has in these special variants is nothing. Ex: Japan has total of ~*90* P-3/P-1 patrol planes!

However, all these said, PLAAF/PLAN still may not buy because C919 will be very expensive compared to Y-9 This is the only strong argument against C919 in PLAAF/PLAN I can think of once the engine issues are resolved



Final note: Your flanker example is terrible. Flanker is produced in China for 2 decades with the exception of engines. With the same logic, how would you explain J-20 in service in numbers vs Su-57 barely starting production?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

A310 MRTT has entered the chat.
IAI G550 Tanker has entered the chat.

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To be fair, these are poor examples though. The A310 MRTT, sitting approximately mid-way between the KC-135R and KC-46, is small only in relation to the A330 MRTT or KC-10 and IAI's G550 proposal never left the drawing board (for good reason).

There are tankers in the same size-bracket as the C919 (MTOW around 80t), but these are invariably derived from tactical transports rather than airliners (KC-130J, KC-390). Their market is small air forces which cannot afford a separate fleet of dedicated, heavy tankers or countries with a requirement to refuel helicopters - neither applies to China.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

A310 MRTT has entered the chat.
IAI G550 Tanker has entered the chat.

Look if the PLA wants to militarize 919 or 929 they will do it. Foreign parts or not. We know this. It’s established. How? Boeing 737 tail numbers 4052 and 4053.
Even if it’s just to VVIP fly the PLA will eventually buy 919. The rest is who knows. Jet based platforms have advantages in range, Higher altitude and speed vs turboprop but they have advantages in loiter and short take off.

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Seriously? One is produced like 5 from old airframes as "just in case" option, the other is a brainstorming exercise. H-6 example would be slightly better for your point I guess... lol.