China's terrirotial loses and claims + Importance.

bladerunner said:

You are mistaken as I was not using the word Han in reference to "Modern China" but 13th century China where people may have seen themselves as distinctly different.. where referring to everybody as Chinese would not have been acceptable. Would a Mongol official in the "Yuan" court tolerate being referred to as Chinese?..... and what of the people in the other regions that once made up the Tibeten empire but was now under Yuan/China /Mongol control. How did they see themselves?

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bladerunner said:

Well there are people who maintain that for much of the time, the relationship was very much like a vassal state with a fair degree of independence. It was not until 1751, during the reign of the Qianlong Emperor (r. 1735–1796), a protectorate and permanent Qing Dynasty garrison was established in Tibet.[105][156] As of 1751, Albert Kolb writes that "Chinese claims to suzerainty over Tibet date from this time."[156] (source wiki) so from that angle , its history is certainly shorter than that of Americas and not much more than N.Z's

This also brings me to another point.
While rebuffing comments made by some on the China/Tibet situation others and yourself often point to the Wests colonisation of America Australia NZ etc. IMO this is like comparing apples with oranges. While Tibet was a established sovereign state/ Kingdom with an established structure, the continents of Australia and America which were inhabitated by people not much more advanced than the neolithic age, was not. Meanwhile the Maoris who trace their ancestory to groups of people who left Hawaii and therefore not indigenous to NZ, invited British rule and colonisation.

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bladerunner said:

You are mistaken as I was not using the word Han in reference to "Modern China" but 13th century China where people may have seen themselves as distinctly different.. where referring to everybody as Chinese would not have been acceptable. Would a Mongol official in the "Yuan" court tolerate being referred to as Chinese?..... and what of the people in the other regions that once made up the Tibeten empire but was now under Yuan/China /Mongol control. How did they see themselves?

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While rebuffing comments made by some on the China/Tibet situation others and yourself often point to the Wests colonisation of America Australia NZ etc. IMO this is like comparing apples with oranges. While Tibet was a established sovereign state/ Kingdom with an established structure, the continents of Australia and America which were inhabitated by people not much more advanced than the neolithic age, was not. Meanwhile the Maoris who trace their ancestory to groups of people who left Hawaii and therefore not indigenous to NZ, invited British rule and colonisation.

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delft said:

The Maoris entered an uninhabited country a thousand years ago.?

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And why would they have invited British rule and colonisation if it was not under the threat of overwhelming violence

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Schumacher said:

Even if it's true the Maoris came from Hawaii, the fact remains they were in NZ before the English.

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So what?, they were still migrants and not indegenous people, however todays Nzders are prepared to treat them as if they were. Some would say that was P.C. gone mad.
AS for the rest ... refer to my post to letz @25

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As for the story they invited their invaders, I don't know which is funnier, the story itself or the fact that some actually buy it.

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solarz said:

What is your point of bringing up "13th century Chinese claims to Tibet" when we are clearly talking about modern-day Chinese sovereignty issues?

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I didnt bring it up. I was merely responding to Schumacher's invitation in post 9 where he said

"Just a minor correction, Tibet is actually a part of China since at least the Yuan Dynasty. That's more than 1000 years ago. So going by the logic of reverting to historical territory, the entire North America should be returned to the Natives, not just Hawaii, Texas, Nebraska, Philadelphia.
Please continue. "

Futhermore youre correct we shouldnt be ranting on about the past but discussing todays sovereignty issues.
So ok lets put what I said about the Mongols etc to one side and acknowledge Chinas sovereignty over Tibet.
Well if the West can hand back their colonies post second world war, why does China cling on to some historical event to justify keeping Tibet when it was prepared to let Korea and Viet Nam go.

So are you saying that people who are less advanced deserve to be conquered and assimilated by those who are more advanced?

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bladerunner said:

refer to my reply to deft @post25

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bladerunner said:

Actually the Morioris from the Chathams were here first. Harsh tratment by the Maoris first and then the Europeans virtually saw them become extinct. The last full blooded Moriori "Tommy Solomon" died in the 1930's and todays survivors number several hundred, have a very severly diluted lineage.



Actually the British were asked by the Maori chiefs to step in because of fear of the French, and what the Maoris were doing to each other. They were actually slowly wiping each other out
Eg Ngapuhi chief Hongi who made a trip to England in 1820 to meet the King. On his return to New Zealand he stopped off in Australia and traded all the gifts the King had given him on 300 muskets and then initiated a ten year period of warfare and cannibalism on his fellow countrymen, slaughtering thousands for no apparent reason. Actually by the time the actual Treaty of Waitangi was signed in 1840 an estimated 60-80000 Maoris had died from inter tribal warfare

Here is an extract from the orginal 1831 letter by the Maori Chiefs, essentially asking for British help which eventually led to the Treaty of Waitang in 1840 which essentially laid out the rules for colonisation. and can be viewed in all its entirety by simply googling it.

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... To KING WILLIAM, the gracious CHIEF OF ENGLAND.
King William,
We, the chiefs of New Zealand assembled at this place, called the Kerikeri, write to thee, for we hear that thou art the great chief of the other side of the water, since the many ships which come to our land are from thee.
We are a people without possessions. We have nothing but timber, flax, pork and potatoes, we sell these things however to your people then we see property of the Europeans. It is only thy land which is-liberal towards us. From thee also come the missionaries who teach us to believe on Jehovah God and on Jesus Christ His Son.
We have heard that the tribe of Marian* is at hand coming to take away our land, therefore we pray thee to become our friend and the guardian of these islands, lest the teazing of other tribes should come near us, and lest strangers should come and take away our land.
And if any of thy people should be troublesome and vicious towards us (for some persons who are living heree who have run away from the ships,) we pray thee to be angry with them that they may be obedient, lest the anger of the people of this land fall upon them.

This letter is from us, of the chiefs of the natives of New Zealand.

afterthought.

of course even the best intentioned plans do go astray and there was unscrupulous land grabs by the church, individuals and the government after the signing of the treaty.. However the NZ government has been making financial compensation to the disadvatanged tribes over the last two or so decades and it is still ongoing.

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bladerunner said:

Futhermore youre correct we shouldnt be ranting on about the past but discussing todays sovereignty issues.
So ok lets put what I said about the Mongols etc to one side and acknowledge Chinas sovereignty over Tibet.
Well if the West can hand back their colonies post second world war, why does China cling on to some historical event to justify keeping Tibet when it was prepared to let Korea and Viet Nam go.

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