China's Space Program Thread II

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
I actually agree that having a single lone uber-mega-provider like SpaceX is not ideal. However...
No need to doubt it — folks over at NASA actually understand farbetter than the cheerleaders do the downstream consequences of SpaceX's monopoly-like dominance, as well as SpaceX's own structural weaknesses.
I said this more than two years ago (not here, not inside China). If you look at the reaction in reality today, the conclusions drawn by industry people over thereline up with my own observations.
It's really quite simple. True aerospace today spans an enormous range of disciplines and systems. You're talking about an industrial base that needs 300,000 to 800,000 specialized professionals behind it just to function.
To put it bluntly: if this industry doesn't spend decadesaccumulating hundreds of thousands of engineers, technicians, scientists, and specialists across dozens of trades — all feeding continuous technical iteration — the whole thing can't run in the later stages.
But a single company, even one as aggressive as SpaceX, cannot sustain an industrial ecosystem of that scale.
China's two state aerospace conglomerates (CASC / 航天科技 and CASIC / 航天科工) alone account for ~300,000 direct employees. Factor in the broader ecosystem — suppliers, adjacent sectors, research institutes, universities — and the total talent pool easily exceeds 700,000.
It takes a human-capital (intellectual-capital) base of that magnitude to credibly support humanity going into deep space.
SpaceX's human (and intellectual) scale simply isn't there. Current headcount is supposedly around 22,000 people. My own projection: it'll hit a hard ceiling around 50,000, and that limit won't be technical — it'll be organizational — the governance architecture of a companyjust doesn't scale cleanly past that without ossifying or breaking.
Right now, the so-called "new guard" of U.S. space entrepreneurship really boils down to only two real players: SpaceX and Blue Origin. Together, they're maybe 30,000 people.
Meanwhile, at the peakof the American space age, the entire industrial ecosystem was mobilizing a specialist workforce on the order of 300,000–400,000. (Today it's probably under 200,000 — and a lot of what remained got gutted by congressional dysfunction and short-termism.)
That U.S. — the one with that deep a bench — was what actually commanded China's respect. What America has effectively done is dismantle that foundation, and SpaceX has acceleratedthe dismantling.
But — and this is the crux — SpaceX hasn't actually rebuilt a complete replacement system. What it built is a partial substitute. Within that substitute, what SpaceX is good at becomes verystrong; what it isn't oriented toward becomes systematically weak.
That's imbalance. That's distorted, lopsided development.
SpaceX triggered a revolution before its time. But if you've read Chinese history, you know: revolutions extract enormous costs, and the destruction they visit on the old order is terrifyingly thorough. That kind of destruction very often poisons the revolution's own endgame — individual actors may survive or even thrive, but the broader collective project can easily get hollowed out.
A healthyrevolution can't be a lopsided monoculture; it has to arrive at a new macro-level equilibrium. What I see in America's current trajectory is not equilibrium — it's amplified distortion.
Once you grasp that, you understand why I'm not nearly as bullish on the "SpaceX way" as the hype suggests.
And honestly? This isn't just a "now-problem." It's a recurrence of something structurally endemic to America — and more broadly to Western capitalism itself. FDR patched over some of the worst of it (and thatunderlying social-industrial compact is what actually let the U.S. out-compete the USSR). Then the Reagan era came along and un-did the patch.
This is blatant wishful coping.
Suggesting that "if China wanted to compete it can flip things in its favour at any time" reads just like an excuse of for why China is unable to do so immediately.

China did not have mature non-hypergolic liquid fuel engines until the last half decade or so, and it is only in the last few years that the technological domains feeding into reusable rockets have coalesced to start initial test runs.

These are technological and industry limitations that have existed, and while it is true that a lack of funding and political priority means that they have slow-walked the process in the past, it remains that those are still real technological and industry limitations.
You misunderstand. It's just that you think China needs to make an immediate targeted response — that failure to respond specifically means defeat, losing the game.
But that's typical Western thinking, not Chinese.
Professor Gao Zhikai said something I think you should ponder carefully. China's victory is achieved across a vast stretch of time, chosen through longer-range calculation and counterbalancing against opponents.
From the very beginning, it was never about short-term confrontation. This way of thinking is deeply ingrained in Chinese bones — it goes all the way back to our myths and legends, like Jingwei filling the sea, or Yu Gong moving mountains.
That's why Gao Zhikai said: for most of China's 5,000 years of history, America didn't exist. And China can, in the next 5,000 years, not see America, not care about America.
What I mean when I say "China can choose" is that China can simply disregard the rules and constraints set by the West. In fact, China is already reshaping all the rules.
The current space game rules were built on the premise of excluding China (in Chinese perception, this history of exclusion goes back longer than you think).
Precisely because such rules have always existed, China has built, in the space domain, a unique aerospace system outside of America's (still inferior to the U.S. today — about a 10-year gap).
But this system is gradually tearing open the blockade that the U.S.-built system has imposed on China. For instance, Russia has gone from being an opponent participating in the blockade against China to a partner in China's aerospace technology system.
Don't underestimate Russia — its real capability is still stronger than the EU plus Japan combined.
America's problem, as I said earlier, is that the real strength of American aerospace came from that peak-era America that could do anything. That strength was comprehensive — strong in every detail, every direction.
China's competition has always been aimed at chasing that all-powerful America. But today's America can no longer maintain that kind of near-universal superiority; it can only choose to lead in select areas.
Why? First, the total amount of intellectual input is insufficient (compare the total workforce numbers in the Chinese and American aerospace industries). Second, the effective utilization rate of funds is a major problem (capital efficiency). Finally, funding allocation is also distorted.
This is the fundamental reason why America is basically bound to lose. To fix these things would require decades of planning and incremental improvement. For example, where are the high-quality industrial workers suited to modern manufacturing? American basic education has already run into serious problems. And America also restricts the inflow of high-quality talent.
In Chinese eyes, America's advantages can be leveled in about 10 years. And beyond that? China has more brainpower, more capital, and is laying groundwork in advance across more technological domains.
Even now, America is starting to fall behind in rocket engine technology. China's technological lag has always been rooted in insufficient investment — and that insufficiency had many causes, mostly because too many industrial sectors started from too low a base. But the point is, China has now gone through a round of industrial upgrading; the generational gap at the starting line has been erased, and in many areas China has even overtaken.
That little advantage SpaceX has — that leading edge built on a distorted ecosystem — is actually very fragile. It's like a team in an arena: if only one or two players are outstanding, the threat is limited — you just shut down those scoring points. But if every player on the team is capable and performs well on average, then who wins more?
The most reasonable way of saying it is that China has the ability to catch up and close the gap and even excel in it in future, but I most certainly would not write about it as if the conclusion is already guaranteed or preordained.
The United States hasn't lost yet — it's not yet time to say it's lost. But I don't see the possibility of it winning in the end.
The core reason is that the U.S. aerospace industrial ecosystem is actually in the midst of disintegration (what I'm looking at is the process of that 300,000–400,000 specialized talent system collapsing into a ~100,000-level technical talent system). This disintegration is caused by a combination of major problems in the U.S. education and talent pipeline, major problems in the U.S. industrial system, and major problems in the U.S. financial investment system.
The existence of SpaceX accelerated the collapse of the old system. But the new system it rebuilt — in terms of talent scale, technological reserves, and capital efficiency — is simply insufficient to support comprehensive innovation and competition with China in the aerospace domain.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Agree, but I think this sector is different especially for Leo constellations. Here time is of the essence , since it’s a first come first serve rule. Which is why the Chinese government is making space a priority in this 5 year plan and has been pushing to also register slots for Qianfan and guowang , so that spacex doesn’t monopolise all the best slots in Leo . So in this aspect China would have to urgently up her launch cadence and rate this coming years to meet up with their slots, else they can lose it and it can be reassigned .
For other space sectors, there is not that much urgency, so China can take her time and do her own thing at her own space
Yes, in the short term, if we follow the current system rules, China does have this problem.

But the thing is, the United States itself does not fully abide by these rules. It constantly gives its own companies the green light (SpaceX is a prime example, along with others). Critically, they will inevitably impose additional restrictions on competitors, especially China.

So you have to understand: what the Chinese see is that these rules are all tools for the West to maintain its hegemony. When the rules benefit them, they demand everyone else obey. When the rules disadvantage them, they are the first to change them. And when this set of rules becomes completely unfavorable to China, even deliberately rigged to block China — and the situation is now crystal clear —

China will definitely abandon this set of rules and independently create a new one. Whether Europe and America are willing to comply is up to them; if they are not, China will simply ignore its competitors and force them out of the market.

Think about it: even if China exceeds the limits, if it wants to use those orbits and those frequencies, does America really have a way to stop it? Will you protest? Occupy China's orbits and frequencies? Or attack China's satellites? If you dare to occupy what China has reserved, China will simply form its own alliance (Russia will certainly be interested) and go occupy yours instead — cover your slots.

Frankly speaking, in low Earth orbit communications satellite constellations, or computing constellations, there are only two real players globally: China and the United States.

You must understand the most fundamental principle: only when your product is reasonably priced can you ultimately win the competition. America's pricing will almost certainly be higher than what China can offer, because America's overall operating costs far exceed China's. China's scale manufacturing ensures that the cost of its industrial products — including the manufacturing and launch costs of rockets and satellites — will be lower than America's. From this alone, China is destined to remain invincible.

The vast majority of the world's population — most countries — need lower-cost technological products. The future will be: America's priced products will only be used by about 40 allied nations in Europe, America, and Japan (roughly 1 billion people). The remaining 6 to 7 billion people cannot afford these products and will use technology provided by China.

This is the inevitable outcome of technological decoupling between China and the West.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
@nativechicken , you said here
"In China's eyes, the future is not 5-10 years, but 20-50 years. The U.S.'s current space advantage is actually only about 10 years. Many of China's technological preparations are planned to overtake on multiple tracks 10-20 years from now. Being behind right now, and finding it difficult to catch up within 5 years—this has always been the honest truth. But once the inflection point is crossed, it will be just like how Chinese automobiles are now dominating the world."

What is your base that US's current advantage over China is 10 years? Honestly I though very close, and in some areas China is in fact more advance
China's breadth and depth of technological accumulation in the aerospace field is temporarily inferior to that of the United States. From the 1950s until before 2010, the U.S. maintained a very high level of investment intensity.
China, constrained by funding and the technical vision of its talent pool, developed slowly. It was not until around 2015 that the technological gap between China and the U.S. narrowed to 25–30 years. Now, it has been chased down to about 10 years. Of course, in some areas — particularly deep space — the gap may still be more than a decade.
Recently, a Chinese academician made a remark that has circulated widely among China's science and technology enthusiast circles. He said that about six or seven years ago, his greatest concern was that, in specific technological fields, what China saw was a lake, while what the United States saw was an ocean.
Now, he finally has the confidence to say that what China sees and what the United States sees are largely the same — they are looking at the same ocean.
If you think the gap between China and the U.S. is small, it's because your horizon is too narrow. What you see and compare is merely a lake, and you mistake that lake for the full picture of Sino-U.S. capabilities.
In reality, that's not the case. What the United States truly sees is that ocean.

The reason I acknowledge a 10-year gap in aerospace technology between China and the United States is twofold:

  1. Over the past 30 years, I have read hundreds of thousands of pieces of scientific and technological literature. So I have a rough idea of just how vast that ocean is — where China is doing well, where it falls short, and the reasons behind those shortcomings.
  2. I have long tracked China's official self-assessments of its own capabilities. This 10-year figure is indeed something they themselves have stated — it is their own target, set by their own evaluation.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You misunderstand. It's just that you think China needs to make an immediate targeted response — that failure to respond specifically means defeat, losing the game.
But that's typical Western thinking, not Chinese.
Professor Gao Zhikai said something I think you should ponder carefully. China's victory is achieved across a vast stretch of time, chosen through longer-range calculation and counterbalancing against opponents.
From the very beginning, it was never about short-term confrontation. This way of thinking is deeply ingrained in Chinese bones — it goes all the way back to our myths and legends, like Jingwei filling the sea, or Yu Gong moving mountains.
That's why Gao Zhikai said: for most of China's 5,000 years of history, America didn't exist. And China can, in the next 5,000 years, not see America, not care about America.
What I mean when I say "China can choose" is that China can simply disregard the rules and constraints set by the West. In fact, China is already reshaping all the rules.
The current space game rules were built on the premise of excluding China (in Chinese perception, this history of exclusion goes back longer than you think).
Precisely because such rules have always existed, China has built, in the space domain, a unique aerospace system outside of America's (still inferior to the U.S. today — about a 10-year gap).
But this system is gradually tearing open the blockade that the U.S.-built system has imposed on China. For instance, Russia has gone from being an opponent participating in the blockade against China to a partner in China's aerospace technology system.
Don't underestimate Russia — its real capability is still stronger than the EU plus Japan combined.
America's problem, as I said earlier, is that the real strength of American aerospace came from that peak-era America that could do anything. That strength was comprehensive — strong in every detail, every direction.
China's competition has always been aimed at chasing that all-powerful America. But today's America can no longer maintain that kind of near-universal superiority; it can only choose to lead in select areas.
Why? First, the total amount of intellectual input is insufficient (compare the total workforce numbers in the Chinese and American aerospace industries). Second, the effective utilization rate of funds is a major problem (capital efficiency). Finally, funding allocation is also distorted.
This is the fundamental reason why America is basically bound to lose. To fix these things would require decades of planning and incremental improvement. For example, where are the high-quality industrial workers suited to modern manufacturing? American basic education has already run into serious problems. And America also restricts the inflow of high-quality talent.
In Chinese eyes, America's advantages can be leveled in about 10 years. And beyond that? China has more brainpower, more capital, and is laying groundwork in advance across more technological domains.
Even now, America is starting to fall behind in rocket engine technology. China's technological lag has always been rooted in insufficient investment — and that insufficiency had many causes, mostly because too many industrial sectors started from too low a base. But the point is, China has now gone through a round of industrial upgrading; the generational gap at the starting line has been erased, and in many areas China has even overtaken.
That little advantage SpaceX has — that leading edge built on a distorted ecosystem — is actually very fragile. It's like a team in an arena: if only one or two players are outstanding, the threat is limited — you just shut down those scoring points. But if every player on the team is capable and performs well on average, then who wins more?

The United States hasn't lost yet — it's not yet time to say it's lost. But I don't see the possibility of it winning in the end.
The core reason is that the U.S. aerospace industrial ecosystem is actually in the midst of disintegration (what I'm looking at is the process of that 300,000–400,000 specialized talent system collapsing into a ~100,000-level technical talent system). This disintegration is caused by a combination of major problems in the U.S. education and talent pipeline, major problems in the U.S. industrial system, and major problems in the U.S. financial investment system.
The existence of SpaceX accelerated the collapse of the old system. But the new system it rebuilt — in terms of talent scale, technological reserves, and capital efficiency — is simply insufficient to support comprehensive innovation and competition with China in the aerospace domain.

The matter is indeed one of time.

When you say they can afford to wait and compete in the long term, the problem that is being posed is -- how long can they actually afford to wait?

I am not necessarily talking about the concern of war, but there does exist a possibility that if one party is able to reach a sufficient critical mass of capability before another party, that it can produce disproportionate effects in "locking in" certain long term advantages (either due to policy, access, or physical occupation) which are much harder to reverse.


This isn't to say I think there is any sort of imminent short term tipping point, but what I am saying is that the time may not be infinite, and that there may be a ticking clock which is being pace set by the fastest current movers.
 
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