China's Space Program Thread II

zxcv872

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What's the point of long march 6 and 8 variants and the long march 12-which seems to be an upgraded version of the long march 8 anyway?
Should have been cancelled years ago and the money and developmental team roped in to work on the CZ-10 instead, or the project never even started in the first place.
None of you can actually give an actual good reason why it makes sense for there to be an slightly upgraded version of the LM-6, the rocket that has flown like once a year for the last 6 years and whom there's a dozen other small lift rockets already in service meant to do the same job. Or why develop an upgraded version of the LM-8, which has flown 2 times in the last 4 years and when there's gonna to be a dozen more capable resuable medium lift rockets coming online in the next few years. Or why an entirely new rocket in the form of the LM-12, which like all new rockets, costs a bomb to develop and will have teething issues for a year or two, at which point they will be facing competition from both the state and private sector in the form of resuable rockets.
Even if we ignore private companies, it's still stupid to try to develop an non-reusable rocket after 2016. There's a reason why the LM-9 has changed it's designs to a Starship clone.

Aren't LM-6/6A/6C/12 SAST projects while LM-8/10/10A are CALT projects? Are resources easily transferred between them?

Continued development of expendable rockets being a waste of SAST development resources assumes that the development bottleneck for a reusable rocket by SAST is within SAST. Might it not be that the bottleneck is in AALPT (YF-209?) There is not much point in SAST rushing to design a reusable rocket if they already know that the engine and the engine production line won't be available in time. You don't save any money by having engineers twiddle their thumbs due to lack of work. Nor is it so easy to lay them off and hope to rehire them all in a few years.

Wasn't the LM-9 design change made possible thanks to the creation of LM-10, which assured schedule for some of the important jobs that would originally have relied on LM-9, such as the manned lunar landing?

A while ago, I wrote four posts on why I think expendable rockets can still make sense, two of which focused on CASC in particular. I will just link them rather than repeat every single thing I wrote.


Two major points I made are that (a) other Chinese companies are working on reusable rockets also, some being quite far along, and (b) schedule and schedule risk can matter a great deal.

LM-6 first launched in 2015, and the project was started long before that, long before similar payload rockets like KZ-11, SD-3, Kinetica-1, TL-2, reduced-capability ZQ-2, etc, so I don't think it can be faulted for creating redundancy. Core-only LM-8 and LM-6A first launched in 2022, a while before Gravity-1 did, and long before full-capability ZQ-2, Pallas-1, Nebula-1, etc, will.

Even after a new rocket becomes operational, there can still remain uncertainty about the reliability, and also about the cadence, especially if the manufacturer is inexperienced and if the rocket depends on new parts whose production lines are still in the process of being ramped up. Cadence is even more uncertain for a reusable rocket, because its cadence ramp-up curve doesn't just depend on production and the launch site, but also on how long it takes to succeed with first stage recovery, how long it takes to improve first stage recovery success rate, how long the refurbishment process takes, and how long it takes to improve first stage turnaround time.

Schedule could have been assured by simply keeping the LM-2D and LM-4B/C around longer instead of introducing the LM-6 and LM-6C, but if you want to shut down the hypergolics supply chain, you can't have stragglers that still depend on it. Maybe LM-6C is a bit redundant, but if a project is already almost completed, you might as well bring it across the finish line even if it brings little benefit. We know that most work on LM-6C was already done years ago, because LM-6C is to LM-6A what Vulcan VC0 is to Vulcan VC4. And a pad for it had already been built.

Isn't the LM-8G modification a quick fix to make LM-8 more cost-effective for GW/G60 launches? Especially the enlarged fairing. Isn't LM-12 largely a SAST contribution to the same intended purpose - the most cost-effective launch system that can be predicted with a high degree of certainty to be operational in time for GW/G60 payloads, and that can be predicted with a high degree of certainty to have a cadence that is in step with GW/G60 production, so that there is little risk that for a long period large numbers of payloads remain grounded, large numbers of ground terminals go unused, and important downstream applications remain idle, losing massive amounts of money.

There is also the issue of ITU deadlines. Under ITU resolution 35, since GW was applied for in 2021, China must deploy 1,300 satellites (10%) by 2029, 6,500 (50%) by 2032, and 13,000 (100%) by 2034. G60 faces the same clock, starting from 2023. This is in addition to everything else China wants to launch in this timeframe, including critical military payloads. There is no room for years-long delays in launch capacity. Sure, there may be teething issues with LM-8G and LM-12, but the schedule risk from that is low compared to the entirely new reusable rockets that are being developed. Canning every launcher project that doesn't make use of the latest and greatest technology might be a penny wise pound foolish decision.

And I'm mainly talking about the upgraded variant of the CZ-8, that must have been started development after the Faclon 9 proved it's worth. And of course the CZ-12, they probably haven't been working on it for more then 8 years.
I think there was a lot of initial skepticism about whether reuse would be economical because of the Shuttle experience. So I think it is less than 8 years since Falcon 9 proved itself in the eyes of many observers, probably more like 5-6 years.
 
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Blitzo

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I forgot to cover this presentation slide from earlier this month.

Apparently, Zhongke/CAS Space has successfully completed a hopping/VTVL test, which achieved an altitude of 1000 meters, with the test vehicle landing on a barge at sea (see part circled in red below). Next, a sub-orbital (100km) hopping/VTVL test is planned for this year.

It's getting hard to track these developments, but I think so far six startups have successfully completed VTVL tests: DeepBlue, Galactic Energy, iSpace, LandSpace, ExSpace, and Zhongke.

53561730797_a7d1b9efc1_k.jpg

One difference between CAS space and other tests is that their VTVL tests previously were done with a jet engine rather than representative rocket engine, so it is not quite as impressive as say what Landspace had achieved.
 

taxiya

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Do all the VTVL tests so far using engines meant for orbital lauch except CAS? I know LandSpace's recent test used TQ-12A which is a variant of TQ-12 that is used by orbital launch (successful one).

CAS' orbital engine for VTVL is YF-102 which has just entered orbit by Tianlong-2. CAS has by far tested the control twice. The next suborbital test would be YF-102. So they have a proven engine, the engine is capable of deep throtlling, they have the control algrorithm tested. Only Landscape is ahead of them (sort of), proven engine which also tested VTVL to 100m. The others (correct me if I am wrong) only tested VTVL with substitute rocket engines which are not any better than jet engine in verfying the final engines nor the software.
 

Quickie

Colonel
One difference between CAS space and other tests is that their VTVL tests previously were done with a jet engine rather than representative rocket engine, so it is not quite as impressive as say what Landspace had achieved.

Do you mean the usual rocket engines (those standard non-deep throttlable types) rather than "jet engines" for aircraft?
 

by78

General
According to this
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, the improved Long March 8 variant will have its maiden flight in June of 2024.

Compared to the basic LM-8, the improved variant will have a larger diameter final stage (increased from 3m to 3.34m) and a larger fairing (increased from 4.2m to 5.2m).

53017463496_b3a84a109b_o.jpg

The 3.35m-diameter final stage (driven by the 10-ton Lox/LH2 YF-75H engine) of the improved Long March 8 has successfully completed full-system test run.

53510966772_04e18fdae0_h.jpg

A second full-system test run of the 3.35m-diameter final stage (driven by the 10-ton Lox/LH2 YF-75H engine) for the improved Long March 8 has been completed. This marks the end of the two-month long test phase of the new final stage. The improved LM8 is scheduled to fly later this year.


53566799383_3daa15be1f_o.jpg
 

nativechicken

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No. From memory I think CAS space's VTVL hopper used a jet engine.
Many people often assume that the VTVL (Vertical Takeoff and Vertical Landing) capabilities of turbojet engines are not as good as those of rocket engines. However, the research on recovery algorithms actually pertains to the control of forces and velocities, as well as the relationship between distance and altitude. The response speed of small-scale turbojet engines is comparable to that of rocket engines. SpaceX's Falcon 9 was able to achieve success rapidly because, from 2001 to 2011, they had the appropriate engines (in the 50-80 ton thrust class). Only a rocket with this class of engine could maintain its mass around 30 tons, which is the optimal landing zone after throttling down the engines by 40-50%. Other space companies have not been able to quickly develop a rocket to compete with the Falcon 9, mainly due to the absence of this class of engine and a compatible rocket body. Developing a rocket engine and body from the ground up typically requires a standard development cycle of around 10 years. This is the true reason behind SpaceX's lead in VTVL rockets. In fact, the difficulty of VTVL at the Falcon 9 scale is relatively low, as evidenced by the fact that numerous second and third-tier Chinese space R&D teams have been able to achieve it. China has already solved the challenge of small-scale VTVL spacecraft, as demonstrated by the Chang'e 3 lunar lander.
 

Blitzo

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Many people often assume that the VTVL (Vertical Takeoff and Vertical Landing) capabilities of turbojet engines are not as good as those of rocket engines. However, the research on recovery algorithms actually pertains to the control of forces and velocities, as well as the relationship between distance and altitude. The response speed of small-scale turbojet engines is comparable to that of rocket engines. SpaceX's Falcon 9 was able to achieve success rapidly because, from 2001 to 2011, they had the appropriate engines (in the 50-80 ton thrust class). Only a rocket with this class of engine could maintain its mass around 30 tons, which is the optimal landing zone after throttling down the engines by 40-50%. Other space companies have not been able to quickly develop a rocket to compete with the Falcon 9, mainly due to the absence of this class of engine and a compatible rocket body. Developing a rocket engine and body from the ground up typically requires a standard development cycle of around 10 years. This is the true reason behind SpaceX's lead in VTVL rockets. In fact, the difficulty of VTVL at the Falcon 9 scale is relatively low, as evidenced by the fact that numerous second and third-tier Chinese space R&D teams have been able to achieve it. China has already solved the challenge of small-scale VTVL spacecraft, as demonstrated by the Chang'e 3 lunar lander.

I'm not sure how this relates to my post.

Nowhere did I say that the VTVL capabilities of a jet engine is inferior to a rocket engine.



What is more important is whether VTVL hop tests can be done with a representative or near representative rocket engine on a near representative rocket fuselage, which assists in further reducing risk but requires a compatible rocket engine and appropriately sized fuselage. That doesn't mean using a jet engine for VTVL hop tests is useless.
 
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