China's Space Program Thread II

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
You can place larger objects in orbit by assembling them from smaller components in orbit.

When Columbus went to the Americas he didn't do it with just one ship either.
We have talked about this "assembling thing". The idea works for many missions, but does not work for others. In a crewed Mars mission, the nuclear powered transport module is up to 100t. The cargo module to Mars is 122t dry mass and 206t cargos. The crew habitat module is 181t dry mass. The crewed lander on Mars is 100t. It takes months to years to assemble these gaints in many perfectly clean factories on earth and test them in various testing facilities by hundreds to thousands scientists and engineers. You think it is easier to break them in hundreds or thousands small pieces, launched by hundreds rockets and have a few astranauts assemble and test them in their clumsy space-suite for months? Only after that you can begin to ferry the 206t cargos into the assembled module which will take another many months.

CZ-9 may not be used often, and the cost is very high, but it is NEVER meant to be "profitable" or competitive to smaller rockets in earning money. CZ-9 is like luxury car, cost is not an issue for the buyer, fun is the only reason. Other small rockets are like a taxi car, it must be commercially competitive. We are talking about totally different purposes that can not be measured by the same set of standards.
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Engineer

Major
Space assembly is worthwhile when the amount of dockings is in low single digit. However, docking is hard. People also forget that it takes astronaunts to finalize each assembly with spacewalks. The simplest task on earth takes hours to do in the vacuum of space. The more assemblies there are, the more time and expenses are needed, and the more things could go wrong.

CZ-9 may be good for manned Moon missions and unmanned interplanetary missions, but it would still be too small for space based power stations and manned Mars missions. The latter projects will need a launcher that's optimized for payloads with large volume in addition to mass.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If you run the numbers, just [200 launches per day] x [150t] = [11 Million tonnes of payload]

Let's say we have mega space stations at 100,000t
Or call it the equivalent of an existing naval aircraft carrier at 100,000t

That would mean the equivalent of over 100 launched per year.

Yes.


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What would they be doing with all this payload?

1. There's nothing in the emptiness of LEO to GEO space to justify all these space stations, unless there is an overt militarisation with huge Space Navies. Note the existing US Navy only comes to 5 million tonnes in total. And what country can afford to launch even 1 aircraft carrier (100,000t) per year?

EDIT
And the payload requirement for missiles is orders of magnitude lower. This has huge implications for intercontinental conventional strike across both directions of the Pacific. Let's say launch costs drop to $100/kg, which should be easily feasible for a truly reusable Falcon-9 sized rocket or Starship-sized one. For a 1000kg re-entry vehicle with warhead, the launch cost is just $100K. Even if you wanted to launch 10,000 such warheads per month, that is equivalent to launch capacity of 0.12 Million tonnes per year.

Thinking more strategically, you would want more dispersed and smaller launch rockets in such a military arms race. Ergo, a smaller Falcon-9 sized rocket versus Starship-size.

And with China now able to inflict significant damage on the US Homeland, the US appetite for declaring war on China will disappear, particularly since both sides will not be able to distinguish between conventional and nuclear strikes. China's strategic objectives do not require a war with the US.


2. Express freight services via space won't be significant as you only save a few hours over the existing air freight services, but the cost will be far higher.

3. A similar calculation applies to passenger transport services, but space rockets will also be significantly more dangerous and more uncomfortable than an airliner.

4. Only when there is a requirement for a Mars base (or a Moon base?), does a Starship sized rocket become more cost-efficient than a Falcon-9 sized rocket. I think this will eventually happen, but there are 2 considerations:

a) A base will take some time to build, because it will be very expensive and likely a huge money sink for years and years.
b) The higher launch costs of a Falcon-9 sized rocket versus a Starship-sized one shouldn't be too bad. Maybe 30%?

So in a worse case scenario, let's assume rockets to Mars will take at least 10 years before they are commonplace.

China would have lower overall launch costs for the first 10 years. Then you would have a period with higher launch costs, but this can be swallowed for a few years until the rocket design is scaled up. It might even end up that China comes up with a larger Starship-sized rocket exactly when it is most cost effective, in say 10-15 years time.

Eventually, we would end up in a situation similar to today's commercial airliner market.

Space based mining, extensive large payload LEO and GEO sensors, regular moon payload transports for lunar resources and basing, and sure, mars eventually as well.

The entire possibility of space being similar to today's commercial airliner market.

Fixed wing flight back in the early 20th century was novel and rare, and yet today we cannot conceive of the world running without it, whether it is for civil or military use. The prospect of that kind of growth in space launch/access in coming decades must be taken seriously by every nation on earth.





"24/7 global simultaneous realtime AMTI, sub-meter grade SAR and GMTI would be well within reach, let alone other strategic applications."

I'd say this is feasible with a constellation <10000 satellites in LEO. You would only need 10000 tonnes in total, rather than millions of tonnes.

But the main problem is the total number of satellites that can fit into LEO, which might only be 50K.
With this sort of limit, a Falcon 9 sized reusable rocket is more cost-efficient than a Starship-sized one.

<10,000 satellites seems a bit low, and you're also talking about 1 ton per satellite.


I'm thinking 150 tons per satellite in LEO, and probably >50,000 for maximum redundancy, and of course you'd need regular launches to facilitate regular refuelling.

Additionally, LEO satellites probably would need to be augmented by a significant GEO satellite presence as well given that you'd ideally want to have multi-layered sensing capability. I think 2,000 large GEO sensors (each GEO sensor still naturally seeking to make use of a SHLV viably) arrayed across the globe, along with 50,000x 150t satellites would enable the sort of real time, militarily robust and attritible space based sensing capability one would want.


Of course, this is only talking about military sensing satellites. If we want to talk about the genuine weaponization of space, then the priority for SHLVs may become even more important because at a certain point you may go beyond mere satellite warfare but genuine orbital warfare with the full array of offensive measures, defensive measures, and countermeasures and all of their associated sensors potentially coming to play.
Then if we think about civil applications of SHLVs (mining), then that also adds additional launch vehicle demand.


Now -- I am partly memeing with the above, but only partly. Overall my point is to demonstrate that I think reusable, high frequency (relative to historical examples) SHLVs may well become a reality in the near future, and even if they only achieve a fraction of the annual orbital launch of what I described (say, 100,000 tons to LEO annually instead of millions of tons to LEO annually), the strategic effect is still significant.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Falcon Heavy can put close to 64 tons in LEO. Long March 10 is expected to be able to put 70 tons in LEO. It wouldn't take too many flights to put even a mission package like that up. Perfectly doable with multiple launch sites. And it's not like you will be doing Mars missions all the time. I also kind of dispute those numbers. That looks like a mission to make an actual Mars base more than just a Mars landing mission. And in that case there are several ways to try to reduce the mass further.

For comparison, Long March 5 can put 25 tons in LEO. It was used to put a 100 tons space station up. You have close to triple the payload in the Long March 10 at 70 tons to LEO. So you could make a space assembly almost 3x heavier. And that is with a single launch site. You could have more than one site.

Missions to Mars will probably also only happen when Mars is closest to Earth. And that is like once every two years.
 
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nativechicken

New Member
Registered Member
We have talked about this "assembling thing". The idea works for many missions, but does not work for others. In a crewed Mars mission, the nuclear powered transport module is up to 100t. The cargo module to Mars is 122t dry mass and 206t cargos. The crew habitat module is 181t dry mass. The crewed lander on Mars is 100t. It takes months to years to assemble these gaints in many perfectly clean factories on earth and test them in various testing facilities by hundreds to thousands scientists and engineers. You think it is easier to break them in hundreds or thousands small pieces, launched by hundreds rockets and have a few astranauts assemble and test them in their clumsy space-suite for months? Only after that you can begin to ferry the 206t cargos into the assembled module which will take another many months.

CZ-9 may not be used often, and the cost is very high, but it is NEVER meant to be "profitable" or competitive to smaller rockets in earning money. CZ-9 is like luxury car, cost is not an issue for the buyer, fun is the only reason. Other small rockets are like a taxi car, it must be commercially competitive. We are talking about totally different purposes that can not be measured by the same set of standards.
View attachment 124272
CZ-9 is a heavy-duty carrier rocket with a lifecycle of over 30 years (this is a term in the literature)
Its goal is the entire lifecycle, and it is one of the most advanced heavy launch vehicles in the world
At an early age (2018), it was revealed in an interview with Xinhua News Agency that his 30-year life cycle
Three stage improvement plan for the first 15 years.
Phase of disposable launch vehicles (lunar base construction) from 2030 to 2035
2035-2040 Reusable Launch Vehicle Phase (Lunar Base Construction+Space Solar Power Plant Demo Version)
2040-2045 Nuclear thermal rocket phase (carrying out manned fire missions)
His improvement plan for the last 15 years of his life cycle has not yet been mentioned.
A carrier rocket with a product lifecycle spanning from 2030 to 2060 is not just a good-looking but impractical luxury car.
From 2045 to 2060, it is known that China's aerospace industry has two long-term goal plans
One is a complete version of a space solar power plant with a GEO orbit of 10000 to 20000 tons, which is actually referred to by the KM class spacecraft.
Another is the Earth ladder with anchor points (counterweights) located 120000km away and a counterweight of 6000t (specific indicators are still being studied). The first one is to complete the launch of 100-300 LEO heavy rockets with a capacity of 150-200t within 2 years. Heavy transport is launched every 3 days.
Perhaps many people have seen Musk's idea in colonizing Mars to achieve a transfer launch of heavy vehicles in one hour (because thousands of heavy rockets need to be launched within a three-month time window).
I have seen a comment from a professional aerospace journalist in the United States: The aerospace industry in the United States, with hundreds of thousands of people and decades of time, cannot achieve a one hour continuous transfer flight at existing airports for more mature commercial aircraft such as Boeing 737-747.
Finally, it is the idea of China Aerospace in 2015 to launch 300 Leo 150t level CZ9 rockets and build a 20000 ton GEO orbit KM level space solar power plant within 2 years. At that time, Musk's colonization of Mars did not have the current details.
 

nativechicken

New Member
Registered Member
What Musk is doing is dangerous and it's far too risky for China to just dismiss it. Nothing may come of Starship, but the risk that it turns out that they will indeed come if it's built is too great for China not to develop a comparable capability ASAP. The downside is that China is out tens of billions of dollars over the development of CZ-9... big deal. That's chump change to China and money will spent to mitigate that risk.

If the upside materializes, then China is very well positioned to capitalize on it.
The success of Starship is not a nightmare for China, but a nightmare for the United States
China's aerospace industry is currently only taking remedial classes, which will not be completed until 2030.
The true strength of China's aerospace industry will only be revealed in 2035-2045.
NASA is currently sleepwalking in the United States. Allowing SpaceX to develop is actually the biggest harm to American space.
You haven't seen the research and development capabilities of CASC, an engine research institute, in completing the development of 9 series of advanced engines in 8 years, including 5 engines with different fuel systems of 200t and above.
Does the United States still have engine development capabilities that can be matched with it? Raptor? If you let the Raptor go through the SSME acceptance process, you will know what this thing is.
Several commercial and private rocket companies in China, which have only been established for 3-5 years, will soon be able to provide thrust of 60-100 tons, equipped with deep thrust engines, some kerosene power, and some methane power. Within 3 years, at least 5 companies will make their first flight and achieve reuse of Falcon 9-level VTVL rockets.
Go see the United States, how many others can achieve all of these at the same time?
How many years did Musk use Merlin 1 to Merlin 1D back then? 13-14 years.
China's toxic fuel rockets have not yet exited the historical stage. The United States and Russia started clean fuel in the 1970s and 1980s, and Europe and Japan also completed the construction of non-toxic propellant rocket systems in the 1990s. China is still taking remedial classes.
In rocket manufacturing, engine development needs to be carried out first. In fact, VTVL technology is not difficult (for American rocket companies), and the real obstacle to SpaceX's competitors is actually the engine system. The development and maturity of engine systems need to be advanced by 10 years (which is why there are problems with the Raptor at this stage). There is no shelf engine available (VTVL needs to consider the mass of the rocket), resulting in the Falcon 9, which has 60-80t engines, standing out in the mid to large rocket launch market.
You need to see the inventory of CASC's engine shelf products after 2030. This is what shocked me (surpassing the United States too much. The glory of American aerospace engines is the history in the aerospace encyclopedia). Because the engine is free, rocket manufacturing is free.
The biggest problem with SpaceX is actually the lack of engine reserves, which he and Bluesource cannot compare in this regard. StarShip and HLS are currently facing numerous difficulties (not the issue of entering LEO orbit, but the easiest of the three major problems), and the core issue is that their power system started with an engine with a capacity of over 200 tons. And he doesn't have any reserves for engines of other thrust levels. Then relying on this engine (Raptor engine) for innovation revolutionized the logic of the entire launch system.
There are too many problems in between. But most people are not aware of the various technical limitations involved. An overly optimistic estimate of SpaceX's promotion of US space launches within 10 years.
In fact, the opposite is true. SpaceX is the ultimate damage to American space, and as you can see on the surface, the Artemis 3/4 program is almost destined to fail. Only by the end of 2025 can we understand the demo of the unmanned moon setting in Artemis. SpaceX has developed a pen shaped lander and is preparing to attempt landing and takeoff in a scenario where there is no hard ground on the lunar surface. This is the core issue.
The real problem with SpaceX is that it is excessively promoting the global aerospace industry, and it will create a siphon effect on the US aerospace industry. On a day with SpaceX, other companies simply cannot grow. All other technological routes are completely abandoned. But if SpaceX is wrong. Bury the future of American space once again. Due to the reconstruction and restoration of the technical system, it takes a period of 10-15 years. And SpaceX's technological roadmap is extremely radical. The design of a starship's enclosed cargo hold is the biggest challenge and problem for this rocket in the next 10 years.
Musk's starship v3 should not be extended by 30 meters, but should separate the payload compartment and propulsion system. This is what the United States needs the most in 10-15 years.
Starships claim to be so cheap. One rocket costs 10 million dollars, which means that the second stage of the rocket can withstand 3 million dollars. In terms of today's aerospace payload prices, it's too cheap. With such a cheap second stage, what about a one-time use (now the Raptor engine can also be used as a one-time rocket engine, and the growth of reliability engineering takes time).
When Intel launched the integrated circuit processor, also known as the CPU, I remember it was like the 4004. Someone asked how to repair such a precise and miniature circuit? The response at the time was, does the $5 chip still need to be repaired? Just discard and replace it.

Musk's excessive marketing resulted in misleading government agencies and the public to make incorrect judgments.
That's the problem.
I never worry about the competition between China and the United States in aerospace.
It is clear that the cost of technology is not as low as rumored, and Musk's ledger is different from the company's standard ledger. If Musk's statement is true, the US tax system will shut down this morning.
The aerospace market in the United States is isolated, and no matter how strong SpaceX is, it is difficult to influence China. SpaceX's plan is overly radical. He only talked about the positive side, but didn't mention the problematic side. And there is not enough knowledge of aerospace details and understanding of industry. Many people cannot see the issues with SpaceX.
But the industry understands a lot.
The biggest problem at present for NASA is the division of views, the influence of neoliberalism on the administrative system, and the abandonment of the entire NASA technology system and operating methods built by technical bureaucrats (which collapsed around 2010), completely relying on elite private enterprises like Musk to save the American aerospace industry. Simply put, in the past, NASA had control over technology execution, only manufacturing outsourcing, The absolute control of technology belongs to the state. But now it's not the case, and technology property rights are no longer under control. NASA is now engaged in service procurement.
Unfortunately, this is absolutely wrong. Because the United States won in the competition between the United States and the Soviet Union in aerospace, it actually relied on public ownership, that is, cross industry integration of all American technological resources, and scientific industry cooperation. The completed Saturn 5 and Apollo programs have been leading until now. Nowadays, the US aerospace industry is mainly controlled by private individuals, with fierce competition among them. Technological advantages cannot be integrated and used separately.
SpaceX's own engine reserves are insufficient. But in fact, other companies can also use it, but now SpaceX is targeted by the entire industry. So he can't get many shelf products, and it's useless for Nasa to coordinate.
There is no sign of any improvement in this state now. So, there's nothing to worry about, let alone worry after 2030. In terms of layout, it was a complete failure
Starship will slowly be pulled down from the top position, just like Tesla does now.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Space based mining, extensive large payload LEO and GEO sensors, regular moon payload transports for lunar resources and basing, and sure, mars eventually as well.

The entire possibility of space being similar to today's commercial airliner market.

Fixed wing flight back in the early 20th century was novel and rare, and yet today we cannot conceive of the world running without it, whether it is for civil or military use. The prospect of that kind of growth in space launch/access in coming decades must be taken seriously by every nation on earth.

Yes. But look at the evolution of each technology.

1. If we're looking at space based mining, it's the Moon, Mars or an Asteroid.

On the Moon, the only possibility is Helium 3 which mooted as a cheap fuel for fusion. But there are 2 big problems:
a) Fusion doesn't work
b) Solar electricity generated on Earth is already approaching a near-zero cost (<1cent/kWh). At equatorial latitudes, this will be available year-round during the daytime. And at more northern/southern latitudes, this electricity availability will be weighted towards the summer and less during the winter. Also consider that space-based solar will have to compete with ground-based solar panels.

2. On Asteroids, you're going to need a lot of missions to capture an Asteroid. Before doing so, you'll want to know what is on it. Then you have to wait for an Asteroid to pass by. And then you'll have to develop all the technology to mine an Asteroid. Then try to figure out how much the value of those minerals will drop when you flood the market with the mine's output. There will be years and years of advance notice as to the viability of such a project.

Alternatively, you could try the Asteroid belt. There are pros and cons compared to capturing an Asteroid near Earth, but it's still years and years of advance notice of whether such a project is viable.

3. Mars is just too away for bulk transport to Earth to be viable.

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What large payload LEO and GEO sensors are we talking about?

With a constellation of just 138 LEO satellites, we already have a revisit time of 10minutes.
How many people will be willing to pay for coverage which is more frequent?
And there is a limit to how many spectrums (visual, infrared, comms, radar, etc) which are viable

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Eventually LEO space will become very crowded and at that point, satellites will be forced to become large, if they aren't already.

And looking back to the commercial aviation industry as an analogy, I'd say the current space industry is roughly equivalent to the situation in the 1920s. Aircraft have been around for a while now but are expensive. They've demonstrated some revolutionary military utility, there are some civilian applications and the technology is still undergoing rapid improvement.

I would say that China definitely needs a fully reusable heavy-lift (Starship) rocket within 30 years (and probably sooner than that).
But for the next 10 years, a Falcon-9 sized rocket will likely be more cost effective.



<10,000 satellites seems a bit low, and you're also talking about 1 ton per satellite.


I'm thinking 150 tons per satellite in LEO, and probably >50,000 for maximum redundancy, and of course you'd need regular launches to facilitate regular refuelling.

Additionally, LEO satellites probably would need to be augmented by a significant GEO satellite presence as well given that you'd ideally want to have multi-layered sensing capability. I think 2,000 large GEO sensors (each GEO sensor still naturally seeking to make use of a SHLV viably) arrayed across the globe, along with 50,000x 150t satellites would enable the sort of real time, militarily robust and attritible space based sensing capability one would want.


Of course, this is only talking about military sensing satellites. If we want to talk about the genuine weaponization of space, then the priority for SHLVs may become even more important because at a certain point you may go beyond mere satellite warfare but genuine orbital warfare with the full array of offensive measures, defensive measures, and countermeasures and all of their associated sensors potentially coming to play.
Then if we think about civil applications of SHLVs (mining), then that also adds additional launch vehicle demand.


Now -- I am partly memeing with the above, but only partly. Overall my point is to demonstrate that I think reusable, high frequency (relative to historical examples) SHLVs may well become a reality in the near future, and even if they only achieve a fraction of the annual orbital launch of what I described (say, 100,000 tons to LEO annually instead of millions of tons to LEO annually), the strategic effect is still significant.

Remember that the limit of say 50K-70?K satellites in LEO will have to be shared across all companies and countries in the world. So far we've got announcements for the following satellite broadband networks:

Starlink 12K->42K
Kuiper 4K

G60 12K
Guowang 13K

So we can already see that there won't be enough space for a >50K satellite networks for maximum redundancy.

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On refueling LEO satellites, remember that Starlinks are currently designed to last 5 years before they fall and burn up. If satellites do start to be refueled, the payload requirement should be a tiny fraction of launch capacity, because these LEO satellites are on fixed routes.

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So let's go with that figure of 100,000 tonnes to LEO annually.

With a Starship at 150tonnes per launch, that's 667 launches. Call it 2 per day.
If we assume a 2 week turnaround, that's only 28 Starships required. You don't get mass-production volumes when you only produce 28.

With a Falcon-9 Heavy sized rocket at say 50tonnes per launch, that's 1667 launches. Call it 4.6 per day. Again, assuming a 2 week turnaround, you only need 65 rockets.

It's still not many rockets, but it is a significantly higher production rate.

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And this all assumes a single rocket design is used for all use cases, which is not going to happen.

So the actual numbers of rockets required for each design will be significantly lower.
 
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