China's Space Program News Thread

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taxiya

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Though I think they could go a bit further with CZ-5DY's potential for reusability -- specifically, I think if all three cores were "identical" in terms of their fuel tanks and their external shaping that would allow all of the cores to be used individually as standalone rockets (like the Falcon 9 to Falcon Heavy relationship). In fact I'm not sure if the asymmetrical tip of the CZ-5DY's two booster cores would allow for a reliable VTVL to be carried out for the booster cores.
I don't think Falcon heavy's core and side boosters are interchangable even though their tank dimensions are the same, the load baring structures are different.

As of CZ-5DY, the difference in the tank sizes shows that the designer prioritize the optimum mission payload than VTVL. I am convinced by the days that I spent in 9ifly.com that Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy are very bad in the mission of CZ-5DY. The reason lies in the ratio of 1st and 2nd stage. Falcon uses much larger 2nd stage to achieve 1st stage recovery at the cost of high orbit payload (GTO and beyond). It is a price not acceptable for a moon rocket, not even for a GTO rocket.

There is no technical alternative in current chemical rocket when the mission is defined.

The rest of your post about prioritizing near earth mission (favouring a Falcon style family) is valid, but only on the ground that is what China's state space program is about in the medium and long term. For that I really can say anything.
 

Blitzo

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I don't think Falcon heavy's core and side boosters are interchangable even though their tank dimensions are the same, the load baring structures are different.

I actually am not sure about that one either, my understanding is that the core of Falcon Heavy is strengthened relative to the standard Falcon 9, but the side boosters are just standard Falcon 9s.

In any case, I think seeking to attain reusability of all three cores for the CZ-5DY is a useful goal, even if the two side ones are not identical to the center.


As of CZ-5DY, the difference in the tank sizes shows that the designer prioritize the optimum mission payload than VTVL. I am convinced by the days that I spent in 9ifly.com that Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy are very bad in the mission of CZ-5DY. The reason lies in the ratio of 1st and 2nd stage. Falcon uses much larger 2nd stage to achieve 1st stage recovery at the cost of high orbit payload (GTO and beyond). It is a price not acceptable for a moon rocket, not even for a GTO rocket.

There is no technical alternative in current chemical rocket when the mission is defined.

The rest of your post about prioritizing near earth mission (favouring a Falcon style family) is valid, but only on the ground that is what China's state space program is about in the medium and long term. For that I really can say anything.

Is the second stage of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy actually that much larger than CZ-5DY's as depicted?
It seems about similar to me
SxqyHeo.png



As for prioritization, well if CZ-5DY can be adapted for VTVL without too much complications then I have no issue with it.
However, if its configuration seeks to optimize mission payload for a moon mission at the cost of a VTVL capability, I think that would be a massive strategic mistake.

Reusability should really be the future, and the geopolitical (and indeed potential economic) costs of not being able to put many tons of payload into earth orbit could be massive.
SpaceX with the Falcon family and the under development Starship are already ahead of China in this regard, however a reusable CZ-5DY has the option to significantly close that gap if resources are allocated wisely and if capabilities are prioritized, and a reusable CZ-9 could equalize it.
 

taxiya

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I actually am not sure about that one either, my understanding is that the core of Falcon Heavy is strengthened relative to the standard Falcon 9, but the side boosters are just standard Falcon 9s.
That is my understanding too.
Is the second stage of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy actually that much larger than CZ-5DY's as depicted?
It seems about similar to me
I must make a correction of myself. I said "Falcon has a larger 2nd stage", it should have been "smaller 2nd stage".But the key point remains that the ratio is optimized for different mission purpose.

The 1st/2nd stage ratio is calculated by their burn time/separation altitude/speed. FH has 27 engines in 1st stage and only 1 in 2nd stage. CZ-5DY has 21 vs 2. So FH 1st stage burns much faster than CZ-5DY, while CZ-5DY 2nd stage burns much faster than FH even if their tankages are similar. There is no data about CZ-5DY's ratio or burn time, but comparing the burn time of CZ-2 and CZ-7 with Falcon, you can see that their 2nd stage is larger than Falcon.
As for prioritization, well if CZ-5DY can be adapted for VTVL without too much complications then I have no issue with it.
However, if its configuration seeks to optimize mission payload for a moon mission at the cost of a VTVL capability, I think that would be a massive strategic mistake.
That is what they are doing from the look of the design, optimizing for mission. But I don't see it a mistake. It can not be wrong if that is what people want.

But it is a mistake to say that their design is focused on moon mission. CZ-5DY's single core configuration is certainly meant for near earth crew mission.

Reusability should really be the future, and the geopolitical (and indeed potential economic) costs of not being able to put many tons of payload into earth orbit could be massive.
SpaceX with the Falcon family and the under development Starship are already ahead of China in this regard, however a reusable CZ-5DY has the option to significantly close that gap if resources are allocated wisely and if capabilities are prioritized, and a reusable CZ-9 could equalize it.
Reusability is good, but there can be more than one approaches than SpaceX's "all in one" solution. China seems to be going for two categories of rockets 1 mission focused 2 general purpose reusable. I don't see why what SpaceX has been doing is the best approach for China. After all, SpaceX's scope is not the full scope of US space ambition and it can not be compared with China.

I remain sceptical of Starship. Technically it is just another rehashed Space shuttle sacrificing the flying ability for the increased payload (which has shrunken to half of its promise). It's elastic shrinking ambition of performance isn't impressive at all. So I don't see there is a gap.
 

Blitzo

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That is what they are doing from the look of the design, optimizing for mission. But I don't see it a mistake. It can not be wrong if that is what people want.

But it is a mistake to say that their design is focused on moon mission. CZ-5DY's single core configuration is certainly meant for near earth crew mission.

I have nothing against optimizing it for the mission if it still allows for reusability to be developed in subsequent variants.

But I think if strategic decisions for rocket development have already been made which does not emphasize reusable heavy and super heavy lift rockets (either as iterations of in development designs or new designs yet to be announced), then I think that their priorities are heavily misplaced, potentially fatal.

Reusability is good, but there can be more than one approaches than SpaceX's "all in one" solution. China seems to be going for two categories of rockets 1 mission focused 2 general purpose reusable. I don't see why what SpaceX has been doing is the best approach for China. After all, SpaceX's scope is not the full scope of US space ambition and it can not be compared with China.

I remain sceptical of Starship. Technically it is just another rehashed Space shuttle sacrificing the flying ability for the increased payload (which has shrunken to half of its promise). It's elastic shrinking ambition of performance isn't impressive at all. So I don't see there is a gap.

My view it has to do with priority.
In the last few years, I think it should have become somewhat apparent that being able to carry out a large number of launches of relatively large payloads into earth orbit is much more important from a geopolitical perspective than being able to conduct the perfect moon or mars mission.

The idea of pursuing separate rocket categories -- one mission focused, and one general purpose reusable -- would be ideal if they had the money, time and resources for it.
After all, the pursuit of reusable rockets in the medium and long term is to consistently and regularly launch over 100 tons of singular payload into earth orbit in a single rocket launch, which would naturally require a very large reusable rocket (CZ-9 class) to do.

Given that, I don't see what the purpose of "mission focused" and "reusable" categories would be once you get to that size -- even if you had the money, time and resources to fund both options, wouldn't the much lower costs of a "reusable" superheavy launcher be able to offer similar mission performance to a "mission focused" launcher if they simply launched more of the "reusable" rocket?
E.g.: if a launch of a "reusable" super heavy is 1/3 the cost of a "mission focused" launch, even if the "reusable" rocket only had 60% the effective payload of the "mission focused" launch, you can still carry out three of those 60% payloads at the same cost.

Or putting it another way -- before there was an estimate from CASC that China would require 10 CZ-9 rockets between 2030 and 2035 (i.e.: two launches a year). There was some confusing phrasing there, as at the time some places incorrectly translated it as "10 CZ-9 rockets per year".
But I think even 10 CZ-9s per year may be potentially dangerously low, and 10 CZ-9s per week may be needed to keep up with the launch pace that the US would likely be bringing online by that time.

The most dangerous scenario is if a nation is able to monopolize large scale orbital launches while the rest of the world has to contend with smaller payload launches. E.g.: if a nation is able to annually launch the full displacement tonnage of a super carrier (100,000 tons) into orbit every year, while others can individually manage a couple of hundred tons per year.




As to starship, in terms of the capability offered, I was more thinking about the reusable first stage "Super Heavy". The actual Starship spacecraft itself is somewhat less important. The reusable "Super Heavy" first stage is what will enable the US and SpaceX to develop more conventional second stages that will be able to put 100 ton class payloads into orbit in a reusable fashion.
 

AF-1

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I agree that reusability of upper stages for heavy lift vehicles are pretty irrelevant, and im sure, if US is able to make such pace of heavy launching, China can do it too. Super heavy first stage is not much technologically advanced, no reasons China not to do it the same with CZ-9s in mass launching/reusing...
 

FairAndUnbiased

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I have nothing against optimizing it for the mission if it still allows for reusability to be developed in subsequent variants.

But I think if strategic decisions for rocket development have already been made which does not emphasize reusable heavy and super heavy lift rockets (either as iterations of in development designs or new designs yet to be announced), then I think that their priorities are heavily misplaced, potentially fatal.



My view it has to do with priority.
In the last few years, I think it should have become somewhat apparent that being able to carry out a large number of launches of relatively large payloads into earth orbit is much more important from a geopolitical perspective than being able to conduct the perfect moon or mars mission.

The idea of pursuing separate rocket categories -- one mission focused, and one general purpose reusable -- would be ideal if they had the money, time and resources for it.
After all, the pursuit of reusable rockets in the medium and long term is to consistently and regularly launch over 100 tons of singular payload into earth orbit in a single rocket launch, which would naturally require a very large reusable rocket (CZ-9 class) to do.

Given that, I don't see what the purpose of "mission focused" and "reusable" categories would be once you get to that size -- even if you had the money, time and resources to fund both options, wouldn't the much lower costs of a "reusable" superheavy launcher be able to offer similar mission performance to a "mission focused" launcher if they simply launched more of the "reusable" rocket?
E.g.: if a launch of a "reusable" super heavy is 1/3 the cost of a "mission focused" launch, even if the "reusable" rocket only had 60% the effective payload of the "mission focused" launch, you can still carry out three of those 60% payloads at the same cost.

Or putting it another way -- before there was an estimate from CASC that China would require 10 CZ-9 rockets between 2030 and 2035 (i.e.: two launches a year). There was some confusing phrasing there, as at the time some places incorrectly translated it as "10 CZ-9 rockets per year".
But I think even 10 CZ-9s per year may be potentially dangerously low, and 10 CZ-9s per week may be needed to keep up with the launch pace that the US would likely be bringing online by that time.

The most dangerous scenario is if a nation is able to monopolize large scale orbital launches while the rest of the world has to contend with smaller payload launches. E.g.: if a nation is able to annually launch the full displacement tonnage of a super carrier (100,000 tons) into orbit every year, while others can individually manage a couple of hundred tons per year.




As to starship, in terms of the capability offered, I was more thinking about the reusable first stage "Super Heavy". The actual Starship spacecraft itself is somewhat less important. The reusable "Super Heavy" first stage is what will enable the US and SpaceX to develop more conventional second stages that will be able to put 100 ton class payloads into orbit in a reusable fashion.
so far literally all of that is vaporware and has failed to materialize their promised costs. the admission of Elon Musk that failure of their production Raptor engines means likely bankruptcy for SpaceX is an even greater indicator. When I have more time later, I can expand on that further and why Starship/Superheavy is an utterly broken and useless concept.
 

Blitzo

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so far literally all of that is vaporware and has failed to materialize their promised costs. the admission of Elon Musk that failure of their production Raptor engines means likely bankruptcy for SpaceX is an even greater indicator. When I have more time later, I can expand on that further and why Starship/Superheavy is an utterly broken and useless concept.

Even if Starship/Superheavy ends up in failure, the reusability demonstrated by Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy is credible enough and still outstrips what other nations can launch as a single unitary payload.
 

anzha

Captain
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Even if Starship/Superheavy ends up in failure, the reusability demonstrated by Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy is credible enough and still outstrips what other nations can launch as a single unitary payload.

The F9 launched today? recently? first stage has been reused 11 times.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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@Bltizo @9dashline

Here is why Starship is useless/irrelevant:
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Was that because there's no previously existing demand that can now be created by additional heavy lift vehicles? No. Notice how the
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and even Falcon Heavy has never flown at claimed maximum payload.
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2021 was not much better; out of 28 total launches of the Falcon 9, 17 were internal launches for Starlink.

That means that outside of Starlink, supply exceed demand for launch services and increases in demand will be related to Starlink.

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Even if SpaceX completely monopolizes the US market at the 1990-2010 average (~30 launches) and then expands it 2x due to induced demand, that's just 60 launches per year. At the quoted price for Falcon 9 expendable for $60M per launch, that's just $3.6 billion. That is essentially their revenue cap under best circumstances.

What are their profit margins? I don't know because they're a privately held company but even a 50% margin better than Apple gives them a profit cap of $1.8 billion. But there's not much room for such a ridiculous margin, since Apple is able to command such a margin because 1. much of their value added is in software with zero marginal cost and 2. they sell to consumers who are easy to con into paying more than the strict price of hardware + assembly + shipping.

SpaceX value added meanwhile is 100% hardware - which has a high marginal cost in aerospace - and sell to sophisticated, cost conscious customers. They have no room to improve profit margin by raising costs and must decrease costs, but costs can only go down so much. With capped revenue and capped profit margin, they only have so much to spare into R&D while maintaining operations. But what is their R&D going into? A launch service with no demand.

That is why Elon Musk says that success of Starlink and Starship is linked - there's no demand for it outside Starlink, but there's no demand for Starlink without Starship due to high maintenance costs. That's why he sent an angry email fuming about possible bankruptcy.
 
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