China's Space Program News Thread

[ChesireCat]

The PRC has not achieved global domination yet, and alot can happen in 14-25 years.
They have been launching manned missions at a leisurely pace. Last manned launch was 2013 and before that its was intermittent as well.
I am pleased with there use of small Skylab style modules. It indicates a serious interest in Long duration space travel. However the biggest problems for the PRC taking long duration seriously is the numbers. 3 men crews are fine for flags and footprint exercises, but for real science beyond LEO you need at least a half dozen.

The next biggest problem for humans is gravity or lack thereof. That's not just pointed at the CNSA that's a across the board; thus far only the minimum of work has been done on plants and insects and mice.
larger animal studies need to be conducted to get data on the effects of artificial gravity on larger vertebrate animal. And then if successful development of a craft that considers that data and introduces gravity simulation technologies IE habitat wheels and space bolos space craft that rotate to generate a centrifuge effect as uniformly as possible. That that brings another issue larger ships.
Still a long winding road, although the US lost its own manned launch system with the shuttle its presence on the ISS has been continuous and they will be back under there own power shortly. The Russians have there own issues but are deeply linked to the CNSA successes having shared technologies and training.

I dont think China wants global domination as we know it from 19th and 20th century. China will probably dominate Asia. As a matter of fact it only needs to dominate Asia and secure key trade lifelines to dominate rest of the world.

Back to space race:
I believe china should have been invited to ISS by the US. You see this everywhere, when China is excluded from something it finds alternatives and even make their own. AIIB comes to my mind.

I still wonder what other utility there is for CZ-9 than moon launches. It will probably be ready for launch by early 2030s. By then the CSS will celebrate 10 years in LEO. Developing such a huge rocket for a few lunar landing seem a little waste.

I imagine CZ-9 ultra heavy version launching 2nd generation CSS modules, equipment for permanent lunar bases. Maybe man mission to asteroid? I believe man will be landing on a asteroid before it sets foot on red planet. Or may be blasting off with contruction materials for a huge long duration spaceship for journeys back and forth to Mars.

IMO major microgravity-related problems will be solved by 2040-2050.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

A large payload rocket if It can be cost effective has a number of potential uses, in LEO it would allow launches of larger station modules, which would allow assembly of larger craft in orbit. for example a single saturn V launched the Skylab into orbit, Skylab was about 68,175 kg for comparison Taingong 1 was only 8,506 kg now what does that 60,000 KG get you? The US firm Bigelow Aerospace has a concept called Olympus a single inflatable module that would weigh just a bit more at 69,850 kg and would give you over 2200 cubic meters of pressurized internal volume, by comparison the whole of the ISS is only 837 pressurized cubic meters. So you can build a very large craft. Those modules could build long duration ships or space stations or satellites and probes.

 

[plawolf]

A big part of China's slow but steady approach is because China doesn't want to trigger a space race. Well at least not until it is in a position where it could win it.

As such, it is building up the foundation and capacity, but at such an incremental pace as to avoid alarming others. And it is working.

If we are to talk of a space race, then I think the moon could be a pivotal waypoint to Mars.

If they can find water on the moon, then they can mine and process it on the moon to provide the biggest single source of materials any Mars mission would need at a far lower cost in terms of getting it into space because of the low lunar gravity.

It may even be worthwhile to assemble the Mars spacecraft in lunar orbit, and then use the Earth's own gravity to help speed its journey with a slingshot manoeuvre.

If man is serious about colonising space, then I think the moon will be the key springboard to get us out there, and so I foresee a lunar colony first, consisting largely of mines and manufacturing bases (all largely robotic possibly), and become the primary human fueling station and maybe even shipyard where spacecraft are built and launched.

In that context, the CZ9 suddenly make so much sense.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Wow I have this feature back working on Sea Monkey...Wish Google could fix Chrome...
I digress.

If they can find water on the moon

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Done.

It may even be worthwhile to assemble the Mars spacecraft in lunar orbit

Sounds like the 90 Day report.

I think the moon will be the key springboard to get us out there, and so I foresee a lunar colony first, consisting largely of mines and manufacturing bases (all largely robotic possibly), and become the primary human fueling station and maybe even shipyard where spacecraft are built and launched.

It is the 90 day Report!
Wow the 1990's Space Exploration initiative seems to have defected. basically It was a four prong program,
step one was ISS aka Space station Freedom,
step two was returning to the moon,
step three was establishing the logistics base to build a space craft on the moon to launch to mars. step 4 was to land on Mars.

The Problem with SEI was that it basically was the NASA program book and Budget which lead to a massive sticker price. Everything was in it, and if any part was delayed the whole thing fell apart, and sure enough Congress killed it. after that Robert Zubrin's direct missions became the mission architecture.
The Direct mission plan was to launch missions from Earth directly and he even included a Launcher design.
the first step was to launch the return trip first. sounds weird but what it means is that the return ship would land on Mars years before the crew on Mars it was to use the Atmosphere and materials of Mars to generate the fuel used for the return trip.
Then was the manned launch in the mission Hab which would have used the last stage of the Rocket launch as a counterweight to generate centrifugal force to negate micro gravity.
With alterations addition of another launch and mission assets this has been the base of NASA' mars architecture. being honest I though the CNSA would have the stream lined mission of Mars Direct rather then adopting a more complex architecture.

 

[plawolf]

Yes, I know they found water on the moon, what I meant to say is if they can find deposites viable enough to mine.

I think the unmanned Chinese precursor lunar missions would be focusing significant parts of their resources towards charting the moon, and finding the most likely viable water and other key mineral deposit sides.

That way, when they do send a manned mission, it would actually have a very useful practical mission of verifying that those deposites are there, and can be reached, as opposed it being only a flag planting exercise.

The 90 day report is extremely well suited to the Chinese MO and mindset. They believe that if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.

You hit the nail on the head when you outlined that the NASA Mars programme is principly in trouble for political and financial reasons, which is why China has been extra careful to avoid spooking the American public and political class.

I would say that for the next 10-15 years at least, if the US wants to seriously start a space race, then there would be little chance China could reach Mars first.

Because of that, China is simply not going to even complete in a space race.

If America wants to go to Mars first, China will actually scale back its Mars efforts and re-direct those resources to Terrestrial missions, and potentially scupper the NASA Mars programme as politicians fret they are backing the wrong horse and fear China will gain the advantage 'back home' while they are wasting their resources on a PR mission on Mars.

But even if we do find ourselves in a situation where a full blown Mars race is on, I think it should be stressed that getting somewhere first does not necessarily mean you have won.

There are increasing historical evidence that the Chinese reached America centuries before Columbus, but that counted for nought since the Chinese only had a look around, then turned around and never went back.

Similarly, the Soviets were the first to put a man in space, but who won the lunar space race and dominated space ever since?

Establishing a moon base and launching a Mars mission from that foundation will undoubtably cost more and take longer compared to a direct launch mission from Earth. However, building all that infrastructure would allow you to launch successive missions are a sustainable and viable cost.

Just reaching Mars holds very little intrinsic value beyond PR, much like going to the moon yielded the US little lasting advantage beyond bragging rights.

More important than getting somewhere first, is being able to do something worthwhile after you get there.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

You hit the nail on the head when you outlined that the NASA Mars programme is principly in trouble for political and financial reasons, which is why China has been extra careful to avoid spooking the American public and political class.

One of the biggest issues is that we have the whole architecture tossed and redrafted every time a new POTUS comes into office, followed by The Technological and biological hurdles. It takes over 6 months depending on orbits for a human to get to Mars , That's not like Apollo which was 3 days up and 3 Back The Orbits mean that any trip to Mars has to spend time on the ground at least a equal amount to that spent in transit. You want your team on the surface over another year. that means a minimum of 2 years in micro gravity and exposed to higher levels of radiation than that of Earth. just spending a year on ISS is harsh on the human body and that is still in the the protection of the Magnetosphere. the Trip out can be modified with artificial gravity and a more powerful engine system probably nuclear but that's a lot of research that has not been done.

I would say that for the next 10-15 years at least, if the US wants to seriously start a space race, then there would be little chance China could reach Mars first.

Because of that, China is simply not going to even complete in a space race.

Some are already, I recently watch the Congregational hearing on Space policy and the name China was used a lot. Really It's not a bad thing, Competition has a way of bringing out the best when it's needed still they are looking to 2033.

If America wants to go to Mars first, China will actually scale back its Mars efforts and re-direct those resources to Terrestrial missions, and potentially scupper the NASA Mars programme as politicians fret they are backing the wrong horse and fear China will gain the advantage 'back home' while they are wasting their resources on a PR mission on Mars.

Mars is part of the future of humanity it has everything we need to establish a true second world. that's what is important. as such it cannot bee a flags and foot prints like Apollo It needs to be a long term study and experiments. However NASA nor the CNSA or ESA are not going to colonize mars, they will launch expeditions like the Antarctic they will not build futures just visit. for building futures you need commercial. You need people going there and saying I am a Miner or I am a HVAC guy or I am going to work security, Or I am opening a general store and selling hooch I made on the QT.
because Commerce is what builds worlds.

But even if we do find ourselves in a situation where a full blown Mars race is on, I think it should be stressed that getting somewhere first does not necessarily mean you have won.

Exactly right. The Cold war Space race was the Cold war. The Russians raced out ahead for propaganda and at times they made claims that were totally untrue. The Reason the US went to the Moon was not some great scientific or exploratory mission, It was not until the later Apollo missions that Science was even thought about, It was to flag and foot prints.

Similarly, the Soviets were the first to put a man in space, but who won the lunar space race and dominated space ever since?

Well the Soviets had a few things hit them, First and I feel For most was the death of the Chief Designer Sergei Korolev, The man basically was the Russian Space program. If you wanted to find a us Equivalent you would need to lump a dozen US Rocket facilities and Von Bran. His death set the Russian program back a decade, Add to that a change in leadership, the Failures of the N1 and Apollo 11's success and it was the end of the Russian moon program.
For the Us program the End came with Vietnam, and the Great Society.

Establishing a moon base and launching a Mars mission from that foundation will undoubtably cost more and take longer compared to a direct launch mission from Earth. However, building all that infrastructure would allow you to launch successive missions are a sustainable and viable cost.

Well, I do feel that a long term Lunar fleet yard will be a massive important feature for the future, I feel that that is more critical beyond Mars, and again Commercial. The Asteroid belts are where the worlds trillionares are going to be made. and they are going to need the moon more than the governments.

The 90 day report is extremely well suited to the Chinese MO and mindset. They believe that if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.

(I know I did this sdrawkcab, but I felt It was better here.) Really I think the advantage of the 90 day is it gives a total package deal of programs. As I said it was basically NASA's whole catalog of programs crammed into a binder. Whether the First Men to walk on Mars arrive there in a ship built around the moon or around earth is only a bit of trivia what is important is what they lay the foundations for with there work on the ground, yet in the end it will not be a 4 letter agency Who is really going to shape the future of mars. It's going to be the Companies like Space X who build company towns who change the face of mars.

 

[Quickie]

China's ambition after space station

File image.


China will manage to exploit the space between earth and the moon for solar power and other resources after it builds a space station in 2020, Lt Gen. Zhang Yulin, said Monday.

The deputy chief of the armament development department of the Central Military Commission said preliminary work on the program had already begun.

"The earth-moon space will be strategically important for the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation," said the national lawmaker.

China's military authority is one of the several departments working on the national space program.

Zhang told Xinhua on the sidelines of the ongoing annual legislative session that generating solar power in space will be much more efficient than on earth. Silicon dioxide used in solar panels, is inexhaustible on the moon, while water in the moon's polar regions and on asteroids can be electrolyzed into oxygen and hydrogen to make propellant for spacecraft.

With propellant and solar panels, a solar power plant could be constructed in space between earth and the moon, impossible with current technology as an industrial-scale power plant would weigh over 10,000 tonnes. The International Space Station, the biggest man-made object to be sent into orbit, weighs just over 400 tonnes.

Besides power, the earth-moon space has a lot of other resources, he said, adding that the current manned earth-moon space program could lay the foundation for a manned Mars program and other deep-space exploration.

"The future of China's manned space program, is not a moon landing, which is quite simple, or even the manned Mars program which remains difficult, but continual exploration the earth-moon space with ever developing technology."

A series of space missions is planned to verify key technology for the space station. Around 2020, a medium-sized space station with three modules and weighing 60 tonnes will be put into orbit.

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[TerraN_EmpirE]

I heard a interview on the Space show with a USAF col. Who was talking about that idea. Orbiting solar farms that beam power back to earth though microwaves or RF or lasers. The potential benefits would be massive. I mean solar panels here today are maybe 18% efficient and they operate under our atmosphere and really on secondary sources of energy when the weather is bad or its night. A solar farm in orbit could gather light any time all the time and would only have to be worried about solar flares. The only issue is the cost of launches. Every ounce you launch has a $ attached and often on a massively uneven ratio. The heavier the payload the heavier the price and a 10000 solar farm is going to cost alot of money. The advantages though is that you would have access to the most powerful power reactor know to man. The Sun produces more power per minute than we humans could ever need. Putting a solar farm up that could reliably transmit power home would offer a massive feather in anyone's cap and push the light bill into negative numbers.

 

[vincent]

I heard a interview on the Space show with a USAF col. Who was talking about that idea. Orbiting solar farms that beam power back to earth though microwaves or RF or lasers. The potential benefits would be massive.

The danger for misuse is massive as well. Can you image someone hack into the control system and redirect the microwave/RF/laser to a city? Goldeneye anyone?

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

The danger for misuse is massive as well. Can you image someone hack into the control system and redirect the microwave/RF/laser to a city? Goldeneye anyone?

I posted the Interview in the NASA and Other space Program thread, The Space Show Is a call in show and someone did ask about the possibility of it becoming a James Bond super weapon. He said The Microwave band being looked at is very low, less then your average Kitchen Microwave. The Laser Again same deal and it's defused over a wide area and so true for RF. He was also talking about using Geostationary orbit so redirect is not a easy task.
I would add, if you built it as a space Tether Then it would be mounted.
Only way to weaponize would be to build it as a weapon from the start. The power Transmission hardware is hard wired you can't modify it beyond it's built in fixed range by remote. To use it as a weapon you would need to physically change it. You can use it to power weapons but not as a weapon. he also pointed out we have these things called Nuclear weapons that would do a lot more damage then a power beam. Sorry no Death star here. .