China's Space Program News Thread

[Blitzo]

Based on historic precedent, a superpower will fall within 20 years of sending a unmanned rover to the moon.


Just kidding.

Well that's.... an interesting statement to make.

Not among the most subtle middle fingers to flip, but among the most awkward, I think.

 

[Jeff Head]

Chuck, there is no need to trivialize, or put a negative light on what the Chinese have done here IMHO...even in "kidding.".

The Chinese are only the third nation to ever make a soft landing on the moon and then send out man-made machinery to explore its surface.

Kuddos to them!

The US sent 27 men into Lunar Orbit between December 1968 with Apollo 8, and December 1972 with Apollo 17. In that time, 12 men landed on the moon and either walked around on it, or drove around (3 missions), between Juy 1969 with Apolllo 11 and December 1972 with Apollo 17.

And we have now not been back in over 40 years! What a shame (IMHO).

I am glad to see mankind getting back to the moon and applaud the Chinese on their acheivement.

 

[i.e.]

NASA has floated ideas to do sample return from Mars on a budget. One involves firing a very compact solid fueled multi-stage rocket, weighing only 25 kilograms or so, off from the surface of Mars with just a few grams of Martian dirt in a capsule. The capsule will then be captured in Martian orbit by an orbiting earth return stage, brought back to earth, inserted into small atmospheric reentry titanium sphere weighing only a few kilograms, and sent in for a landing.

Since the moon's surface gravity is only 1/3 that of Mars, this whole idea ought to be quite practical for lunar return as well, and doable for even less weight.

It was said the Chang'e 3 lander had a potential payload capacity of over 1000 Kgs, and only 120kg is used for the rover. There appears to be plenty of extra payload capacity for a small solid fueled ascent stage weiging some dozens of kilograms to hitch a ride, along with a Yutu 2 rover to look for interest dust to bring back. The Chang'e 2 bus had already demonstrated the capacity to escape from the moon again, so an modified Chang'e bus can be used to capture the moon dust capsule in lunar orbit, escape from the lunar gravity well and reenter earth's sphere of influence, zip by earth, and drop off a small reentry module housing the moon dust capsule.

The greatest challenge seem to be the lunar orbit rendevous needed for the lunar return craft to pick up the lunar dust capsule. Unmanned orbital rendevous so far from earth has, AFAIK, never been actually attempted.

the main engine, Electrical Thermal, Structure, batteries, attitude control, takes up most of the weight.
mission system are only a small percentage on this mission.

lunar orbit docking is no different than LEO docking. the delay in communication is such that the whole sequence has to be done by machine anyways. no way a man-in-loop will work. Soyuz and other cargo ships auto dock with ISS most of the time anyways.
human with a joystick firing thrusters actually takes alot of training and waste alot of fuel. orbital dynamics is such that, for example, firing a thruster backwards would actually move "up" so on and so forth. so it is mostly done via computers anyways.

the challenge is to scale well, its fine to pack a small package into a small rocket. payload and rocket is relatively scale-able. docking systems such as laser and radar range finder, stereoscope cameras, comms, attenas. batteries etc are bit harder to scale down to a scale.

 

[chuck731]

Well that's.... an interesting statement to make.

Not among the most subtle middle fingers to flip, but among the most awkward, I think.

Chuck, there is no need to trivialize, or put a negative light on what the Chinese have done here IMHO...even in "kidding.".

Lighten up, it wasn't a finger flip or a trivialization. it was an intentionally contrarian joke.

 

[i.e.]

Chuck, there is no need to trivialize, or put a negative light on what the Chinese have done here IMHO...even in "kidding.".

The Chinese are only the third nation to ever make a soft landing on the moon and then send out man-made machinery to explore its surface.

Kuddos to them!

The US sent 27 men into Lunar Orbit between December 1968 with Apollo 8, and December 1972 with Apollo 17. In that time, 12 men landed on the moon and either walked around on it, or drove around (3 missions), between Juy 1969 with Apolllo 11 and December 1972 with Apollo 17.

And we have now not been back in over 40 years! What a shame (IMHO).

I am glad to see mankind getting back to the moon and applaud the Chinese on their acheivement.

and do it with a 2 billion a year budget ... 2 Billion Dollars!!!!
that;s less than what Small Business Administration gets in the federal budget!

===

btw, I just have to put in this dig.

The Lead contractor for YuTu and Chang'E is Shanghai Academy of Space Technology; major subsystems are built by CETC institutes in Shanghai as well, so was the majority work of Shenzhou vessel.

Shanghai is prob the only city in the world that one can build
carrier rockets,
satellites.
tracking and telemetry ships to monitor them, as well as destroyers to guard the telemetry ships.
VLBI telescope antenna facility to tract them,
High speed meglev trains,
subways trains as well as the giant tunneling equipment.
home of GM's extemely profitiable joint venture with SAIC.
and..

may be china's first successful home designed jet liner.

I can't think another place on earth has that concentration and range of engineering facilities and talent.

 

[Blitzo]

Lighten up, it wasn't a finger flip or a trivialization. it was an intentionally contrarian joke.

Agreed, but making the joke with the insinuation that China will collapse like the USSR (or even worse, that you hope it will) is in bad taste -- or at the very least it is a little awkward regardless of your otherwise innocent humorous intentions.

 

[AssassinsMace]

When I read articles on this, it's always mentioned that China is decades behind. It is also mentioned that China does this for prestige value only. Isn't belittling this all about bragging? Who's the one in it for prestige value? Talk about a waste of money if all space exploration is about who did it first. It's also criticized that China is doing it for exploitation of extraterrestrial resources. I guess that means China isn't only about superficial prestige.

 

[Blitzo]

When I read articles on this, it's always mentioned that China is decades behind. It is also mentioned that China does this for prestige value only. Isn't belittling this all about bragging? Who's the one in it for prestige value? Talk about a waste of money if all space exploration is about who did it first. It's also criticized that China is doing it for exploitation of extraterrestrial resources. I guess that means China isn't only about superficial prestige.

Rofl I read two articles on BBC, one was Damian grammaticas doing his classic dance of trying to insinuate shadowy political intentions to incite nationalism... The other was an interview with one of the chang'e head scientists who mentioned opportunities for mining helium 3 on the moon in the far future, written in a way to imply a threat of exploitation of the moon.

So either china is doing a moon mission for vain nationalistic purposes or they are callous and calculating. Hmm.

 

[Maggern]

When I read articles on this, it's always mentioned that China is decades behind. It is also mentioned that China does this for prestige value only. Isn't belittling this all about bragging? Who's the one in it for prestige value? Talk about a waste of money if all space exploration is about who did it first. It's also criticized that China is doing it for exploitation of extraterrestrial resources. I guess that means China isn't only about superficial prestige.

I read this article a while back that pointed out although China may be merely retracing the steps of other powers, -today- they are the only ones with remotely the capability of putting humans on the moon. Even though the US has done this, the know-how and infrastructure is not there anymore. And there's nothing in the pipeline for the immediate future.

But really, the first to pull off viable resource extraction from alien worlds (moon included) is the one who will own space in the future.

 

[AssassinsMace]

I read this article a while back that pointed out although China may be merely retracing the steps of other powers, -today- they are the only ones with remotely the capability of putting humans on the moon. Even though the US has done this, the know-how and infrastructure is not there anymore. And there's nothing in the pipeline for the immediate future.

But really, the first to pull off viable resource extraction from alien worlds (moon included) is the one who will own space in the future.

Frankly any criticism about China's space program is just sour grapes. The more countries that can do it makes the first time less important. If China was in the mind that this is just prestige like they think, why would they bother with a lunar mission? This serves to enhance China's capabilities needed to advanced further. Anyone who thinks a country that has never done something before can immediately jump to the head of the line past everyone else is someone not in charge of a space program. India is already planning to send people to the moon in 2020 when they haven't sent one person into space. If one goes by the logic of the critics, India fails if their first manned mission isn't sending people to the Mars first before anyone else. Of course all this is reverse psychology. They don't want China in space to begin with because China will eventually will catch-up. They're already saying China has made tremendous leaps forward faster than the established space powers even though still not in par with the US. The critics would love to make everyone think that if China is 40 years behind in space technology, China will always be 40 years behind. Yet the Chang'e and Yutu rover are the most sophisticated technology ever sent to the moon. By the logic of the critics, that's impossible.