China's Space Program News Thread

[bjj_starter]

I have some questions about the Chinese space program, I've found it very difficult to find information on the PRC space program in English through my usual sources, any recommendations for English language sources appreciated.

1. Does the PRC have any technology demonstrators or space stations planned that use rotation for artificial gravity?
2. Does the PRC have any tech demonstrators, private companies, official plans etc for exploring asteroid mining? I read a while ago that the PRC had a long term goal of "economic development of cislunar space", and I'm curious as to whether that specifically excludes asteroid mining or whether it's part of that plan.
3. Is the PRC working on reusable orbital launch systems of some kind? Whether tail-landing like SpaceX, or some other system. I imagine development costs on a similar system would be significantly lower than the estimated $1Bn it cost SpaceX now that the PRC has seen it can definitely be done and knows at least the basic principles of how they do it. I have to imagine Chinese rocket scientists are also able to glean a lot from the huge amount of open source information there is on some SpaceX systems, so it would be surprising to me if this wasn't a capability CNSA or a private space company was pursuing.

 

[SanWenYu]

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The TQ-12A liquid propellant rocket engine completed a restart cycle (二次启动) test. In the test, the engine ran 400 seconds, then shut off, then started again and ran 10 seconds, then shut off smoothly.

蓝箭航天天鹊80吨改进型火箭发动机完成二次起动试车​

北京8月25日电 记者25日从蓝箭航天获悉，蓝箭航天80吨改进型发动机(代号TQ-12A)近日通过二次起动试车考核。

其中，一次起动后发动机工作400秒，二次起动后工作10秒，发动机起动关机正常、工作平稳、性能稳定；另外一次起动后模拟滑行段任务剖面，获取了发动机入口及泵腔内推进剂温度变化数据，为优化二次起动前推进剂贮箱压力及预冷流程提供依据。

TQ-12A发动机于2021年2月立项并启动研制，在充分继承TQ-12发动机技术的基础上，通过设计优化及改进，发动机推力提高9%、比冲提高40m/s、重量减轻100kg。

蓝箭航天表示，TQ-12A发动机二次起动试车，成功标志着“天鹊”系列液氧甲烷发动机已具备可重复使用能力，有效增强“朱雀”系列运载火箭各类任务轨道卫星的发射能力，并为子级回收需求及可重复使用提供了基础技术保障。

 

[Pacific]

I have some questions about the Chinese space program, I've found it very difficult to find information on the PRC space program in English through my usual sources, any recommendations for English language sources appreciated.

1. Does the PRC have any technology demonstrators or space stations planned that use rotation for artificial gravity?
2. Does the PRC have any tech demonstrators, private companies, official plans etc for exploring asteroid mining? I read a while ago that the PRC had a long term goal of "economic development of cislunar space", and I'm curious as to whether that specifically excludes asteroid mining or whether it's part of that plan.
3. Is the PRC working on reusable orbital launch systems of some kind? Whether tail-landing like SpaceX, or some other system. I imagine development costs on a similar system would be significantly lower than the estimated $1Bn it cost SpaceX now that the PRC has seen it can definitely be done and knows at least the basic principles of how they do it. I have to imagine Chinese rocket scientists are also able to glean a lot from the huge amount of open source information there is on some SpaceX systems, so it would be surprising to me if this wasn't a capability CNSA or a private space company was pursuing.

1.None (that I've heard of)
There's a gravity research rack in the Wentian CSS Module, but that's a far cry from plans for rotational artificial gravity.

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2.I think there was official talk about this idea, but it was just talk about possible future plans, no real public progress (I think).
At the very least, we'll have to wait for Tianwen-2 asteroid sample return mission to pave the way for further missions for asteroids.

3.The Long March 8R is a reusable rocket (still in development)

The Long March 5DY is planned reusable. (using some kind of tethered recovery

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).

The new Long March 9(2021) is planned reusable.

Basically everything we know about these rockets come from Long Lehao's presentations. Here's the entire 40 min presentation.

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There's talk about the "Tengyun" spaceplane project, but that's really far away. The basic technology is still being worked on and it's nowhere close to being mature.

Rumors about a proposal from Ma Weiming on a electromagnetic launch complex, but its rumors, and just a hypothetical proposal. I've only ever seen some CGI of it from years and years ago. There's no actual evidence its actually something that's being worked on.

Edit: I'd be careful about assuming any kind of connection between SpaceX and Chinese programs. You'd think Musk invented the very concept of reusable rockets or something, given how his fans talk.

But I think the advancements of reusable rockets in the US, including the progress made by SpaceX, have definitely given a push towards the Chinese Space Program to be more ambitious from the previous plans of single use rockets. Given the changes from the 2011 version of the Long March 9 to the 2022 version.

 

[Pacific]

Sorry, I forgot about the English language sources. Why is the editing deadline only 5 minutes .

I don't know what you mean by "usual sources", so I don't know if you've seen these before, but the best English sources I've seen is:

Andrew Jones

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(Journalist that mostly follows Chinese space)

Dongfang Project

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(Aerospace engineer? covering Chinese Space, He's visited the CASIC and CASC facilities in person before actually)

SciNews (only posts raw footage)

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and this Forum, since people will post info from Chinese sources here. Link

also the Forum on NASASpaceflight sometimes.

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[taxiya]

Two comments:

The Long March 5DY is planned reusable. (using some kind of tethered recovery

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).

I think it is a mistake of the PPT saying it is CZ-5DY doing tether recovery of 1st stage. I won't doubt Long Lehao, but my experience tells me that the PPTs are not reliable, we have seen obvious mismatchings in those PPTs in the past.

Falcon 9 is the best recovery done so far, it's structure is the lightest, CNSA acknowledge that. In Falcon 9 expaded mode GTO is 8,3t, in ASDS recovery mode 5.5t. That is 66% of the max payload capacity. It's LEO panelty is 71%. This means the further you go the higer payload loss. In Falcon 9's three recovery burn, the final landing burn is 21s of one engine, the initial reentry burn is three engines for 28s. One can see that the final saving is very small.

CZ-5DY is the moon rocket. Its max LTO being 27t in expendable mode. The tether recovery save some fuel and therefor payload but not much. That means by using tether, CZ-5DY may reach no more than 70% of payload (using Falcon 9 GTO as reference). That means 18.9t LTO. This is inadequate for moon mission because the minimum single launch is 25t (the crew module). The lander won't be much less.

So I think what is really intended and being tested for recovery is the near earth orbit crew launcher CZ-5ZRL.

The new Long March 9(2021) is planned reusable.

Only the 2 staged near earth orbit version which is of CZ-9 family, but designation being something else like CZ-9X. See the ppt saying CZ-9 is 3 staged, while the reusable is 2 staged.

 

[huemens]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562696661297639424

 

[Blitzo]

Two comments:

I think it is a mistake of the PPT saying it is CZ-5DY doing tether recovery of 1st stage. I won't doubt Long Lehao, but my experience tells me that the PPTs are not reliable, we have seen obvious mismatchings in those PPTs in the past.

Falcon 9 is the best recovery done so far, it's structure is the lightest, CNSA acknowledge that. In Falcon 9 expaded mode GTO is 8,3t, in ASDS recovery mode 5.5t. That is 66% of the max payload capacity. It's LEO panelty is 71%. This means the further you go the higer payload loss. In Falcon 9's three recovery burn, the final landing burn is 21s of one engine, the initial reentry burn is three engines for 28s. One can see that the final saving is very small.

CZ-5DY is the moon rocket. Its max LTO being 27t in expendable mode. The tether recovery save some fuel and therefor payload but not much. That means by using tether, CZ-5DY may reach no more than 70% of payload (using Falcon 9 GTO as reference). That means 18.9t LTO. This is inadequate for moon mission because the minimum single launch is 25t (the crew module). The lander won't be much less.

So I think what is really intended and being tested for recovery is the near earth orbit crew launcher CZ-5ZRL.
View attachment 96176
View attachment 96172

The three core CZ-5DY has LTO of 27t yes, but in two stage version also has LEO of 70t.

A reusable recovery of the first stage/s (first stage+common shared boosters) could be useful for large payload applications using the three core CZ-5DY.
70% of 70t is a pretty big payload for LEO.


Imo, for the purposes of "important parameters of space launch vehicles in context of strategic competition" -- the "annual mass that one is able to put up into LEO" is the most important, followed closely by "single structure mass that one is able to put up into LEO".

I expect space based warfare to be a thing later this century, and it will be characterized both by swarms of relatively small, moderately capable satellites, as well as larger high performance, multirole satellites/stations carrying arrays of sensors and weapons.

Of the "large satellite" variety, the capabilities of your platform will be limited by how big the single structure LEO throw weight will be, and how often you can launch them.

 

[taxiya]

The three core CZ-5DY has LTO of 27t yes, but in two stage version also has LEO of 70t.

A reusable recovery of the first stage/s (first stage+common shared boosters) could be useful for large payload applications using the three core CZ-5DY.
70% of 70t is a pretty big payload for LEO.


Imo, for the purposes of "important parameters of space launch vehicles in context of strategic competition" -- the "annual mass that one is able to put up into LEO" is the most important, followed closely by "single structure mass that one is able to put up into LEO".

I expect space based warfare to be a thing later this century, and it will be characterized both by swarms of relatively small, moderately capable satellites, as well as larger high performance, multirole satellites/stations carrying arrays of sensors and weapons.

Of the "large satellite" variety, the capabilities of your platform will be limited by how big the single structure LEO throw weight will be, and how often you can launch them.

That is something I missed. @Pacific, please ignore first point of my comments.

 

[Blitzo]

That is something I missed. @Pacific, please ignore first point of my comments.

Here is a copy of the table depicting the two stage 70t LEO (69t LEO technically, nice) configuration from a few years ago, just for the sake of archive/record keeping:

 

[bjj_starter]

1.None (that I've heard of)
There's a gravity research rack in the Wentian CSS Module, but that's a far cry from plans for rotational artificial gravity.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

2.I think there was official talk about this idea, but it was just talk about possible future plans, no real public progress (I think).
At the very least, we'll have to wait for Tianwen-2 asteroid sample return mission to pave the way for further missions for asteroids.

3.The Long March 8R is a reusable rocket (still in development)

The Long March 5DY is planned reusable. (using some kind of tethered recovery

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

).

The new Long March 9(2021) is planned reusable.

Basically everything we know about these rockets come from Long Lehao's presentations. Here's the entire 40 min presentation.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

There's talk about the "Tengyun" spaceplane project, but that's really far away. The basic technology is still being worked on and it's nowhere close to being mature.

Rumors about a proposal from Ma Weiming on a electromagnetic launch complex, but its rumors, and just a hypothetical proposal. I've only ever seen some CGI of it from years and years ago. There's no actual evidence its actually something that's being worked on.

Edit: I'd be careful about assuming any kind of connection between SpaceX and Chinese programs. You'd think Musk invented the very concept of reusable rockets or something, given how his fans talk.

But I think the advancements of reusable rockets in the US, including the progress made by SpaceX, have definitely given a push towards the Chinese Space Program to be more ambitious from the previous plans of single use rockets. Given the changes from the 2011 version of the Long March 9 to the 2022 version.

Thank you for answering all of my questions! That sounds really interesting. I hope China does start work on a rotating space habitat at some point. I hope someone does, at least, and I can't think of a better candidate than China. Maybe the EU with their wealth, but their space infrastructure is not as developed and China has a much larger steel industry and ship/bridge building industry, which would be the sort of skills you'd need for a large scale space habitat like that, or at least for its skeleton.