China's SCS Strategy Thread

plawolf

Lieutenant General
That is an interpretation that is not supported by the quote, unless you can dig up the exact quote for everyone. Here is Reuter's translation again: "“We cannot lose even one inch of the territory left behind by our ancestors". There is no qualification about being forced or intimidated into giving up one inch, but rather a fairly absolute statement made about China's ancestral territories. My point is that this is a statement of strength spoken by someone trying to portray resolve in the context of the SCS island disputes, but is not a realistically attainable goal if applied to China in general and is almost certainly not even a belief held by Xi himself, who is not interested in reclaiming Outer Mongolia, Outer Manchuria, Jiaozhi, the Four Commanderies of Han, or even South Tibet. He's definitely interested in the SCS though.

The western media has a long and consistent history of key omissions and suspiciously convinent mistranslations of Chinese statements.

The full transcripts are not yet published anywhere I can see, but you don’t need them to get the context. And it seems pointlessly pedantic to insist on making a song and dance about my interception of the context not being a literal translation of what was said only to then pretty much say the same thing but say that is your own take on what President Xi meant.

Xi is about to launch some silly crusade to reclaim lost historical Chinese territory on boarders the PRC has already settled. Nor would China insist on recovering ‘every inch’ of historical territory from India if India was ever serious about actually settling its boarder dispute with China in a fair and reasonable way.

The whole point of Mattis’ visit was to be SCS, so of course President Xi’s comment was about the SCS. Would anyone really seriously have thought it could be referring to anywhere else?

The focus on ‘every inch’ is precisely the kind of almost certainly deliberate mistranslations the western media is infamous for, to make China look unreasonable and/or stupid.

Anyone with even a basic working understanding of Chinese will know that ‘not even an inch of’ is a fairly common turn of phrase in Chinese, and is most commonly used as a qualifier of absolute resolve, and is almost never supposed to be taken as being a literal unit of measurement.

The other claimants gambled and lost by spurning China’s earlier offers to settle the dispute, which would most likely have involved giving concessions for resource exploitation to the other claimants in exchange for everyone pulling personnel from occupied islands and a vague enough acceptance of China’s nine line that everyone can claim to be a winner.

Now that China has invested all that time and resources building up its island holdings. There is zero chance of a Chinese withdrawal from those islands.

So instead of a mutual withdraw, the best the other claimants can hope for is for China to still be willing to give resource concessions in exchange for their unilateral withdraw.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Really? If that's what he truly believes then he must be getting ready to fight a nuclear war with Russia.
Don't stretch it. What Xi meant "not loosing every inch from ancestors" (being the original words of Xi or not) is perfectly self-consistent. PRC inherited whatever left by ROC who in term from Qing. Anything before PRC's establishment is outside PRC's claim, both legally and metaphorically. PRC will not fight for Siberia for what Qing has lost, nor Mongolia for ROC's loss etc. etc. Provoking fight between China and her neighbors won't work, neither will it make PRC look bad, or feel ashamed.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
The western media has a long and consistent history of key omissions and suspiciously convinent mistranslations of Chinese statements.

The full transcripts are not yet published anywhere I can see, but you don’t need them to get the context. And it seems pointlessly pedantic to insist on making a song and dance about my interception of the context not being a literal translation of what was said only to then pretty much say the same thing but say that is your own take on what President Xi meant.

Xi is about to launch some silly crusade to reclaim lost historical Chinese territory on boarders the PRC has already settled. Nor would China insist on recovering ‘every inch’ of historical territory from India if India was ever serious about actually settling its boarder dispute with China in a fair and reasonable way.

The whole point of Mattis’ visit was to be SCS, so of course President Xi’s comment was about the SCS. Would anyone really seriously have thought it could be referring to anywhere else?

The focus on ‘every inch’ is precisely the kind of almost certainly deliberate mistranslations the western media is infamous for, to make China look unreasonable and/or stupid.

Anyone with even a basic working understanding of Chinese will know that ‘not even an inch of’ is a fairly common turn of phrase in Chinese, and is most commonly used as a qualifier of absolute resolve, and is almost never supposed to be taken as being a literal unit of measurement.

The other claimants gambled and lost by spurning China’s earlier offers to settle the dispute, which would most likely have involved giving concessions for resource exploitation to the other claimants in exchange for everyone pulling personnel from occupied islands and a vague enough acceptance of China’s nine line that everyone can claim to be a winner.

Now that China has invested all that time and resources building up its island holdings. There is zero chance of a Chinese withdrawal from those islands.

So instead of a mutual withdraw, the best the other claimants can hope for is for China to still be willing to give resource concessions in exchange for their unilateral withdraw.
No, you are obviously missing a subtle difference between our interpretations. My post was to point out that a straightforward interpretation of Xi's remarks that a typical Chinese ultranationalist would subscribe to and promote is an unrealistic act of futility (there are such people in China, and I suspect even on this very forum); Xi's statement was made to show strength and resolve rather than be taken literally. Meanwhile your alternative interpretation is one that is simply not supported by what we currently know of what he said.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
One big important difference between former China Siberian territory and SCS is that China signed away ownership of the former, albeit reluctantly, whereas Chinese ancestors left behind the SCS islands, but never anything in print. An agreement on paper is legally binding.
 
Thursday at 5:32 PM
Today at 8:26 AM
while now I read
Xi meets with U.S. Secretary of Defense
Xinhua| 2018-06-28 00:52:14
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137285165_15301185103281n.jpg
and
Mattis, Chinese Leadership Discuss Pacific Cooperation in First SECDEF Trip to Beijing Since 2014
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This ocean is big enough for the both of us, China’s leaders told Secretary of Defense James Mattis during his week-long swing through the Pacific spent finding common ground in some cases with Beijing or politely agreeing to disagree in others.


While in Beijing, Mattis met with China’s President, Xi Jinping, his counterpart General Wei Fenghe, Minister of National Defense, and with General Xu Qililang, China’s Central Military Commission vice chairman.

“The Pacific Ocean is vast enough to accommodate China and the United States, as well as other countries,” Xi said, according to the
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released by China’s Ministry of National Defense after Mattis departed.

“China and the United States should promote the development of bilateral ties based on the principle of mutual respect and win-win cooperation. When we see common interests between China and the United States, we do not shy away from differences,” Xi said in the statement.

Mattis and General Xu Qililang agreed that reducing the region’s risk and strategic uncertainty relies heavily on substantive military-to-military contacts, according to a summary of the meeting provided by Dana White, head Pentagon spokesperson.

A broad range of topics was discussed, including the U.S. and China’s shared interest in the denuclearization of North Korea, were discussed during Mattis’ two-day stay in Beijing, the first such official visit by a U.S. Secretary of Defense since 2014.

Full transcripts of Mattis’ meetings were not made available by the Pentagon. However, after Mattis left Beijing, the Chinese government released more details of his conversations with China’s senior leadership regarding bilateral military relations, maritime security operations, and the status of Taiwan – China considers the island as part of the mainland, not a sovereign state.

“Needless to say, China and the U.S. have different views on some issues. It must be pointed out, however, that the common interests of China and the US far outweigh their differences, and the opportunities for cooperation far outweigh the challenges,” Senior Colonel Wu Qian, spokesperson for China’s Ministry of National Defense, said Thursday according to an
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of his monthly press briefing, released by the ministry.

Still, Chinese officials are not pleased with language in the House of Representatives 2019 National Defense Authorization Act encouraging increased interactions between the U.S. and Taiwanese militaries. The NDAA, “Supports improving Taiwan’s defense capabilities, expands joint training, foreign military sales, the use of security cooperation authorities, and senior-level military-to-military engagement initiatives with Taiwan.”

Responding to a media question about the NDAA language, Wu said China’s position is clear.

“Taiwan is a part of China. We are firmly opposed to any form of official exchanges and military contacts between any country and Taiwan. This position is clear and definite. What needs to be stressed is that there is no way out to bank on foreign forces to build themselves up, and it is impossible to contain China with Taiwan. We urge the US side to deal with the Taiwan-related issues cautiously or it might shoot itself in the foot,” Wu said, according to the Ministry of National Defense transcript.

Mattis also visited South Korea and Japan, reaffirming the U.S. pledge to continue partnering with the countries. In the case of South Korea, Mattis said the U.S. would continue its close consultation with South Korean leaders and other partners in the region as “our diplomats continue their work to achieve the complete, verifiable and irreversible denuclearization of the Korean peninsula,” according to a statement released by the Pentagon.

U.S. troop levels in South Korea would remain at about the current level of roughly 28,000 active duty military personnel, Mattis said.

“The U.S. and [South Korean] forces remain united, vigilant and ready to defend against any challenge,” Mattis said in a statement.

Coincidentally, Mattis’ meeting with China’s military leadership occurred the same day the Rim of the Pacific 2018 exercise started.
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to participate in the exercise because of China’s actions deploying missiles and electronic warfare systems to artificial islands in the South China Sea.

While meeting with Wei, Mattis invited him to make a similar official visit to the U.S. “Wei accepted the invitation gladly,” Wu said during his briefing.

Meanwhile, China’s invite to RIMPAC 2018 was canceled but that doesn’t necessarily mean China won’t send a ship anyway. A Chinese surveillance ship was waiting for HMAS Adelaide (L-01) when Australia’s Canberra-class landing helicopter dock ship stopped in Fiji two weeks ago while transiting to join RIMPAC in Hawaii, according to
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.

However, during his media briefing, Wu dismissed the idea China would spy on Australia’s navy during Thursday’s press briefing.

“The Australian media’s reports are sheer fabrication out of nothing and whimsical imagination. To be very frank, the Australian media may have overestimated their country’s strength. China has no reason or need to conduct the so-called surveillance on Australian naval ships,” Wu said. “The way the Australian media draw attention by distorting the story only reveals their lack of common sense and confidence. I want to stress that freedom of the press is not equal to fabrication.”

During
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, China sent four ships to participate in the exercise and slipped a fifth — an uninvited surveillance ship — into the region to monitor the activities.
 
at first thought I'd put it to
RIMPAC 2018
but there're references to the SCS inside, so:
The RIMPAC exercise begins challenging major powers again
2018-07-02 09:55 GMT+8
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On 27th June, Adm. John C. Aquilino, Commander of US Pacific Fleet announced the start of RIMPAC 2018, which is scheduled to go on to August 2 in and around the Hawaiian Islands and Southern California, with 25 nations, more than 45 surface ships and submarines, 17 national land forces, and 25,000 personnel taking part in.

China's PLA Navy was disinvited from the RIMPAC Exercise 2018 in May, because “China’s continued militarization of disputed features in the South China Sea only serves to raise tensions and destabilize the region,” said Marine Lt. Col. Christopher Logan, a Pentagon spokesman.

But ironically Vietnam, who carried out its construction in the South China Sea earlier than China, and installed a lot of military facilities and weapons there, has been invited to participate for the first time.

Obviously the reality is not as the story told by the US. Actually, the changes in RIMPAC are the reflection of the change in US perception of the global maritime environment and its naval strategy.

In 1971, when the first edition of the RIMPAC was held, it was limited to America’s closest allies, and its primary aim was to enhance their joint operational capability to counter the Soviet Union’s military ambitions in East Asia. So the RIMPAC Exercise was originally a product of big power confrontation.

After the cold war, in addition to its allies and partners in the Pacific Rim, US wanted to foster and expand cooperative relationships with more other countries, even some of its original and potential adversaries, hoping through wide and multidirectional engagement to ensure the maritime safety and maintain US dominant position in the ocean.

In 2012, Russia was invited to participate in the exercise, and in 2014 and 2016, China's navy was invited as well. Meanwhile, more non-combat training and exercises in terms of maritime security and cooperation were added, such as disaster relief, search-and-rescue, anti-piracy, etc.

With the engagement of more participants and an expansion of the exercise contents, RIMPAC’s tradition of big power confrontation is weakening, and its international coordination and cooperation is rising.

Unfortunately, things changed in recent years. In 2014 Russia was kept out of the exercise because of the Ukraine issue. In May this year, China was disinvited from the RIMPAC 2018. Changes in RIMPAC again reflected the adjustment of US naval strategy.

In January 2016, the CNO of the US Navy issued the report: "A Design for Maintaining Maritime Superiority," arguing that “for the first time in 25 years, the United States is facing a return to great power competition,” and “Russia and China both have advanced their military capabilities to act as global powers.”

A year later, the Surface Command of the US Navy published the Surface Force Strategy, reiterating “A quarter-century of global maritime dominance by the US Navy is being tested by the return of great power dynamics,” and emphasizing the concept of Distributed Lethality “as an operational and organizational principle for achieving and sustaining sea control at will,” the core of which is that more ships should be equipped with more firepower and operate in a more dispersed and independent way to enhance the US Navy’s combat capability, and sustain its advantages in the complicated high-end maritime warfare.

So it is not surprising when we read the statement on official website of the exercise that “RIMPAC 2018 contributes to the increased lethality, resiliency, and agility needed by the Joint and Combined Force to deter and defeat aggression by major powers across all domains and levels of conflict,” and in the starting ceremony of the exercise, Admiral Aquilino said RIMPAC 2018 “shows that like-minded nations who value a free and open Indo-Pacific want this opportunity to improve our cooperation with each other.”

When China and Russia are kept out of the RIMPAC Exercise, we have every reason to believe that the two important countries in this area are not the “like-minded nations,” but the “major powers” that should be deterred and defeated.

So two decades after the cold war ended, it seems that the RIMPAC Exercise is shifting back to its tradition of competing with major powers, which sends a dangerous message to the region and the world that the danger of confrontation of big powers in the ocean is on the rise.

However, the world is changing, and the relationship between China and US is not that between the Soviet Union and the United States.

The disinvitation of China to the exercise will not change China’s position in the South China Sea, but only damages the communication and stability between the two navies, which is not in the interest of either country. Perhaps that’s the reason why Mr. Mattis visited China a day before the start of RIMPAC Exercise.

Only through communication and cooperation can we realize a peaceful and stable relationship between the two militaries, and a stable Sino-US relationship is a pillar for a peaceful, stable and prosperous Pacific Ocean, which is the common desire and goal of the people in the Pacific Rim and beyond.
 
now noticed (dated 5 July 2018)
China is quietly conducting electronic warfare tests in the South China Sea
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  • China is quietly testing electronic warfare assets recently installed at fortified outposts in the South China Sea, sources tell CNBC.
  • Electronic warfare assets are designed to confuse or disable communications and radar systems.
  • A Pentagon spokesperson declined to comment on intelligence matters.
China is quietly testing electronic warfare assets recently installed at fortified outposts in the South China Sea, according to sources who have seen U.S. intelligence reports.

Intelligence assessments, which were curated less than a month ago, say this is the first known use of the equipment since its deployment earlier this year to outposts in the Spratly Islands, said the sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

A Pentagon spokesperson declined to comment on intelligence matters.

The move allows Beijing to further project its power in the hotly disputed waters. The placement of electronic warfare assets, which are designed to confuse or disable communications and radar systems, comes on the heels of China's
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on three outposts in the hotly contested waters of the South China Sea.

The new coastal defense systems, coupled with electronic warfare equipment, represent significant additions to Beijing's military portfolio in one of the most contested regions in the world.

The South China Sea, which is home to more than 200 specks of land, serves as a gateway to global sea routes where approximately $3.4 trillion of trade passes annually.

The numerous overlapping sovereign claims to islands, reefs and rocks — many of which disappear under high tide — have turned the waters into an armed camp. Beijing holds the lion's share of these features with approximately 27 outposts peppered throughout.

The Spratlys, to which six countries lay claim, are located approximately two-thirds of the way east from southern Vietnam to the southern Philippines.

Just north of the Spratly Islands lie the Paracels, where Beijing boasts 20 outposts including Woody Island, which serves as China's administrative and military headquarters in the South China Sea.

Woody Island features an airstrip, helipads, 20 hangars for combat aircraft, J-10 and J-11 fighter jets, HQ-9 surface-to-air missiles, and anti-ship cruise missiles.

Meanwhile, China maintains that its island-building on strategic outposts in the South China Sea is for nonmilitary functions. Yet the jamming equipment and missile systems appear to serve no other purpose than for military interests.
 
... Report: Japan to send JS Kaga to South China Sea, Indian Ocean mission
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Japan is likely to send its Izumo-class helicopter carrier to the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean this year as well.

The two-month deployment of the 27,000-ton JS Kaga comes as Japan aims to boost its presence in this strategically important region, Reuters reported citing two unnamed Japanese officials as saying.

The 248-meter-long JS Kaga, which
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last year at Japan Marine United shipyard, will visit Indonesia, India and Sri Lanka as part of the mission scheduled to start in September.

“This is part of Japan’s efforts to promote a free and open Indo-Pacific,” one of the officials told Reuters.

The move to send the vessel allegedly comes amid mounting concerns of Japan and the US over China’s military presence in the disputed waters.

Last year, Japanese 24,000 helicopter carrier JS Izumo also participated in a three-month deployment to the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean.

Referred to as helicopter-destroyers by the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force, JS Kaga and JS Izumo are capable of operating some nine helicopters from their decks and are armed with two Raytheon RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile SeaRAM launchers and two Phalanx close-in weapon systems.
 
LOL!! Did not realize until now that Vietnam was invited for twisted and dubious reasons.

at first thought I'd put it to
RIMPAC 2018
but there're references to the SCS inside, so:
The RIMPAC exercise begins challenging major powers again
2018-07-02 09:55 GMT+8
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


China's PLA Navy was disinvited from the RIMPAC Exercise 2018 in May, because “China’s continued militarization of disputed features in the South China Sea only serves to raise tensions and destabilize the region,” said Marine Lt. Col. Christopher Logan, a Pentagon spokesman.

But ironically Vietnam, who carried out its construction in the South China Sea earlier than China, and installed a lot of military facilities and weapons there, has been invited to participate for the first time.

Obviously the reality is not as the story told by the US. Actually, the changes in RIMPAC are the reflection of the change in US perception of the global maritime environment and its naval strategy.
 
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