China's SCS Strategy Thread

Blackstone

Brigadier
I'll just wait here and see what US has got to do to back up its words. Nobody questions American maritime dominance, but whether the US is determined to use it to protect a poor and powerless ally like the Philippines or a Communist country like Vietnam is another question.

Ultimately it's just a few rocks in the middle of nowhere.

As long as we don't block international freedom of navigation and trade routes passing through the SCS, I highly doubt there will be any serious will from the US to use its might in the SCS.

You talk big, but looking at what happened in Syria and what's happening in Ukraine.

Nah
.
Your view isn't unreasonable, but the portion in bold is shallow thinking. US problems in Syria could be summed up in two words: Barack Obama. The US President is the weak link in the chain, and not US capabilities or resolve. Whomever is President two years from now wouldn't draw red lines and then turn tail. Bank on it!
 

solarz

Brigadier
Your view isn't unreasonable, but the portion in bold is shallow thinking. US problems in Syria could be summed up in two words: Barack Obama. The US President is the weak link in the chain, and not US capabilities or resolve. Whomever is President two years from now wouldn't draw red lines and then turn tail. Bank on it!

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Obama's mistake in Syria was drawing the red line in the first place. Don't forget that the bigger partner in the Syria insurgency are the Al-Qaeda affiliated groups. Helping the Syrian rebels would be akin to helping al-Qaeda. I think Obama knew this very well, but was more or less forced into painting himself into a corner.
 
I'll just wait here and see what US has got to do to back up its words. Nobody questions American maritime dominance, but whether the US is determined to use it to protect a poor and powerless ally like the Philippines or a Communist country like Vietnam is another question.

Ultimately it's just a few rocks in the middle of nowhere.

As long as we don't block international freedom of navigation and trade routes passing through the SCS, I highly doubt there will be any serious will from the US to use its might in the SCS.

You talk big, but looking at what happened in Syria and what's happening in Ukraine.

Nah.

Syria is not a primary US concern, nor has it been a defeat of US interests. As solarz pointed out Syria is a major preoccupation primarily for Islamist extremists of various camps. The US would rather see them wear themselves and the Assad government out. The US is priming moderate rebels to exert themselves once the other factions have weakened. The main setback for the US so far is on the rhetorical front which doesn't mean much.

Ukraine at this point is a clear win for the US and its allies despite Obama administration haters spinning it otherwise. A pro-Western government is in power in Kiev rather than a pro-Russian one, they clearly have the upper hand against pro-Russian separatists, and Russia is clearly hurting from economic sanctions that are part of the fight and backing off from further major action. The US and its allies didn't win everything immediately but it won a lot and has the upper hand set up for further gains.

As to US policy towards China in the SCS and ECS, clearly it is containment but it can be tight or loose. Exactly how tight and how loose will depend more on US-China direct interactions and their direct relationship rather than either being manipulated somehow by mostly much smaller powers with the exception of Japan.
 
Last edited:

port_08

Junior Member
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Obama's mistake in Syria was drawing the red line in the first place. Don't forget that the bigger partner in the Syria insurgency are the Al-Qaeda affiliated groups. Helping the Syrian rebels would be akin to helping al-Qaeda. I think Obama knew this very well, but was more or less forced into painting himself into a corner.

Obama is a good US president. I believe, he would not simply want to commit America into another war like Afghanistan. However, US military industrial complex demands war to oil their war economy.
 

A.Man

Major
China’s Strategy Has Completely Eluded Washington

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The Chinese dragon, awake and alert for some time, is suddenly stretching its arms and embracing what it thinks with conviction is its destiny as a Pacific power. Will the American protectorate in place for 70 years hold, they ask in Tokyo, in Seoul, in Manila, and now even in Hanoi.


The short but unqualified answer is, “No.”

China’s emergence is a matter of history, of geography, and, since Deng opened the reform period in 1978, of accumulated economic power. Behind the rise we witness now lie Beijing’s view that the post 1945 order in the western Pacific must be corrected and a fulsome measure of Middle Kingdom determination. In one of the world’s wounded civilizations, the recovery of lost greatness has been the national dream since Mao took Beijing in 1949.

Does the Obama administration grasp any of this? This has not been clear for some time and grows more questionable now.

Last Saturday, Reuters reported the U.S. issued one of its strongest warnings to China when Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel told an Asia-Pacific conference that the U.S. “will not look the other way when fundamental principles of the international order are being challenged.”

Related: U.S. Warns China Against Aggression as Allies Seek More Cooperation

Hagel said the United States took no position on the merits of rival territorial claims in the region, but added, "We firmly oppose any nation’s use of intimidation, coercion, or the threat of force to assert these claims."

The posture here is not right. The primary lesson to be grasped in Washington and the Asian capitals is that the less time spent with fingers in the dike the better. The task now is to devise sensible, imaginative, sustainable policy responses that protect the interests of the U.S. and its allies while altering the climate in Asia from the poisonous antagonism we have to accommodation and on to cooperation.

Related: Legacy at Risk, Obama Struggles to Redefine Foreign Policy

This can be done, providing the wit and guts are there.

Recommendation No. 1 for Washington: Cut out the political appointees game in the foreign service. Restore the State Department’s institutional memory with good brains versed in history, the languages, and culture as opposed to rational choice theory.

Recommendation No. 2: Take control of the policy process away from Defense and the military and give it back to State, thus correcting an error that has for decades been detrimental to U.S. interests and the American profile in Asia.

The moment to rebuild strategy, ground up, is upon us for a simple reason: China has chosen it. Beijing has for many years waited for the right occasion to assert itself with concrete actions. As our jargon has it, China is “calling us out.”

There is not much ambiguity on this point. China has been increasingly aggressive in asserting its position in an islands dispute with Japan since last year. Six months ago came its declaration of an air defense zone that intersects with those Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have had in place, courtesy of American cartographers, since the early Cold War years.

More recently Beijing has advanced maritime claims in the South China Sea that place its rights within a few dozen miles of the Philippines shoreline and 300 miles from the mainland. In its boldest moves to date, it recently towed an oilrig into waters claimed by Vietnam, prompting protests in Hanoi that resulted in four deaths.

Related: The Gas Deal with China Could Bail Out Mother Russia

These are not separate questions. They are better understood as the start of China’s campaign to renovate the power balance in the western Pacific. David Pilling, Asia editor at the Financial Times, sees savvy tactical design as a unifying theme across the region. “China’s probing the edge of what it can do,” Pilling said the other day. “These are issues Beijing knows America will not react to other than rhetorically.”

Pilling, who is among the most astute Asia analysts now in the field, takes a very long view of Chinese thinking. China turned inward after the 1949 revolution, he says, finding Washington’s Pax Pacifica objectionable but expedient. So did Deng, who said in effect, “Let’s proceed with our reforms and choose our moment carefully.”

“Some people took acquiescence in the post-1945 order to be permanent policy, but it’s a misreading,” Pilling said. “If one is to take one’s time, the only question left is, “When?” And it now starts to look as if the answer is, “Now.”

O.K., Pilling, but why now?

The 2008 financial crisis was a tripwire, in Pilling’s view. America no longer appeared infallible; China, as America’s biggest banker, a WTO member, and ahead of Japan as the No. 2 economic power, gained confidence. “There’s a prestige factor here, too,” Pilling added.

Related: U.S. and China in a Lethal Game of Cyber Chess

Equally, the Law of the Sea had long been on the U.N.’s docket, but only recently have nations marked out formal territorial claims. When Hillary Clinton, then Secretary of State, asserted America’s role in protecting Asian sea lanes on a visit to Hanoi in 2010, Beijing’s back stiffened. “Critical point,” Pilling thinks. “China saw no role for America in Asian disputes. What if relations with the referee turned hostile?”

At the security conference in Singapore at the end of last week, the shared concern among Hagel and his counterparts was the pressure Beijing now intentionally exerts to weaken Washington’s network of alliances with regional capitals. This is almost certainly an accurate perception.

Yet, it would be a mistake to assume China intends to replace Pax Americana with a Pax Sinica. It is too busy at home, cannot afford any such an ambition, and has proven from Mao to Deng and since that pragmatic self-interest figures high in its calculations. This is the door to renovated relations Washington must not fail to step through.

Hagel’s criticism of Beijing’s recent moves in the region—“intimidation and coercion,” he said—was a mistake on numerous counts. First, it was Hagel’s remark. The defense secretary should do less traveling in Asia and Secretary Kerry more. Second, Hagel betrayed anxiety, and one must avoid that with the Chinese. Third, he signaled that Washington remains determined to fight the forlorn fight against the incoming tide.

Finally, Hagel elicited two reactions in the region, neither desirable. Beijing denounced the conference point blank. Elsewhere, Hagel’s talk will merely confirm the widely shared impression that talk is all Washington finally has on offer.

Asia Sentinel, an authoritative online journal published in Hong Kong, said it this way in a recent edition: “For a nation that is supposedly paying more attention to Asia and building relationships with old and new friends, the U.S. response to recent Chinese moves against Vietnam and the Philippines has been mealy-mouthed.”

Not the desired effect, to put the point mildly.
 

Brumby

Major
I'll just wait here and see what US has got to do to back up its words. Nobody questions American maritime dominance, but whether the US is determined to use it to protect a poor and powerless ally like the Philippines or a Communist country like Vietnam is another question.

Ultimately it's just a few rocks in the middle of nowhere.

As long as we don't block international freedom of navigation and trade routes passing through the SCS, I highly doubt there will be any serious will from the US to use its might in the SCS.

You talk big, but looking at what happened in Syria and what's happening in Ukraine.

Nah.

I think China's motive with regards to SCS is relatively clear based on official statements and demonstrated actions. Its primary aim is to dominate the SCS and in its view is a reversion to its historical rights. It has now come off age both economically and militarily and the steps being taken are to right the wrongs precipitated by colonial European powers. Its actions are calculated moves to undermine the US's credibility in the region and to highlight its impotence in the face of China's assertiveness. IMHO, the so call rocks is the key and strategic pathway to its domination. Planting structures was the first step. Reclaiming provides the ports and airstrips (which we are seeing). ADIZ will surely follow - eventually.

The US is not a signatory to UNCLOS. Vietnam is not a treaty partner and so unless China directly attacks the Philippines (which it will not), there is no pretext for US involvement besides the standard huff and puff. The more statements that the US puts out, the more obvious is its inability to deal with the situation (legally and morally). In my view, the US has so far being reacting rather than taking the initiative.

I have a wild idea and was wondering whether it is feasible from a military standpoint (logistically and defensibility). Currently the Philippines has a boat beached in the Second Thomas Shoal signalling it is Philippines territory (but contested by China). If the US wants to send a signal that it means business, it can beach one of its retired LHA (say USS Nassau) next to the Philippines boat and set it up as a FOB. This will obviously infuriate the Chinese but it will then have to either back down or attack the US if it wants to continue with its plans. I think the term is passive assertiveness.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Another point of view. I think the US approach of being more vocal and more critical lopsidedly is only making matters worse. Because it eggs on the other claimants to be even more vocal and even confidently thinking there's going to be some sort of alliance heading to war which is what supposedly everyone's trying to avoid. For instance, just look at Australia hopping on the bandwagon of critiquing. For what exactly since it doesn't have any direct disputes with China and even does brisk trade with China?

On the other hand, if the US became more vocal but equally such as publicly denouncing Japan's "nationalizing" of islands or Philippine's poor handling of their coast guard gunning down fishermen or Vietnam's own island fortification upgrades, I think that makes all claimants a little more hesitant and perplexed, thus cooling all the rhetoric. All these other claimants may then get peeved at the US's criticism but it can then be fairly said the US is neutral and realistically, none of these claimants will be less engaged with the US if the US criticizes them a little. Who else will they turn to? But in doing so, China may view less of US containment and cool their rhetoric as well. Right now, it's more like a game of chicken and seeing who will blink first.


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


China-bashers in Southeast Asia, Japan and the US are having a field day. Indeed, China is getting hammered by a perfect storm of its own clumsy public relations, its actions and reactions, and what China perceives as the harmonised public diplomacy strategy of its detractors. However, the situation is more complex and nuanced than journalists and "experts" would have it.

More worryingly, this campaign is set to end badly, probably with a smarting, angry and relatively politically isolated China. That will not be good for peace and stability in the South China Sea, or the region as a whole.

The latest imbroglio involves China's placement of an oil rig within Vietnam's claimed 200-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone and on its claimed continental shelf. Vietnam has protested vehemently and sent coastguard and police vessels to the site to prevent the rig from drilling.

US Secretary of State John Kerry has called China's move "provocative", while Japanese officials have also criticised it. However, the Association for Southeast Asian Nations - which is closer to the situation and its ramifications - has not blamed China, at least not directly or collectively, despite lobbying by both Vietnam and the Philippines for it to do so.

China's unilateral action has certainly raised tensions and probably violates the spirit if not the letter of the 2002 Asean-China Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea, particularly the provision stating that "the parties concerned undertake to resolve their territorial and jurisdictional disputes by peaceful means, without resorting to the threat or use of force, through friendly consultations and negotiations by sovereign states directly concerned, in accordance with universally recognised principles of international law, including the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea".

Notably, the declaration says disputes such as those between China and Vietnam, and China and the Philippines, should be resolved between "sovereign states directly concerned". China believes the Philippines has violated this provision and that Vietnam may be on the verge of doing so.

This means there is a fundamental disagreement on the meaning of the declaration's key provisions.

Moreover, the declaration is, after all, a non-binding political stopgap measure to contain a festering dispute, and has been violated by almost all South China Sea claimants at one time or another.

Further, China would probably argue that, in any case, the declaration does not apply to the nearby Paracel Islands.

China has occupied, inhabited and administered the Paracels at least since 1974 when its forces defeated the South Vietnamese forces there. China thus has a claim - based on the UN Law of the Sea - to a 200-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone and continental shelf from the islands. Vietnam disputes Chinese sovereignty over the islands. This means the dispute is probably not the result of a claim by China outside the UN convention, such as its infamous nine-dash line, but a sovereignty claim and boundary dispute solely between China and Vietnam.

This type of disagreement cannot be solved by recourse to the UN dispute settlement mechanism.

It is indeed questionable whether the Paracels can or would generate a full exclusive economic zone and continental shelf. But that has to be determined - not assumed. The Paracels may well have some effect on the placement of a boundary. For what it is worth, the oil rig is situated 17 nautical miles from Triton island in the Paracels and is certainly on China's side of a median line between the Paracels and Vietnam's coast.

Unfortunately, China has chosen not to make clear the basis of its claim. China does not recognise Vietnam's claim to the Paracels. It obviously assumes there is no question regarding its right to drill there and thus has simply proceeded to do so.

According to the UN arbitral tribunal's decision in the Guyana-Suriname case, such unilateral actions would be a breach of the obligations under the Law of the Sea "to make every effort to enter into provisional arrangements of a practical nature" and "not to jeopardise or hamper efforts to reach a final agreement". In the Guyana-Suriname case, the tribunal found that both parties had violated this provision. This may be the case here, too.

Moreover, if ramming by ships is a "use of force", then both parties appear to have violated the UN Charter, the Law of the Sea, the Treaty of Amity and Co-operation in Southeast Asia and the Asean declaration on conduct. The two ideological soulmates need to go back to the negotiating table and work out a provisional arrangement of a practical nature.

By the same token, the May 6 arrest and detention of a Chinese crew and vessel near the disputed Spratly Islands may also be a violation of the Law of the Sea and the Asean declaration.

The point is that all parties in these disputes share some blame. But the US and even Japan have heaped hyperbole and hypocritical criticism on China. US Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Russel has said "we oppose any act of intimidation by vessels particularly in disputed areas". This could apply to both countries, but was clearly aimed at China.

Meanwhile, China views the actions by Vietnam and the Philippines as provocations encouraged by the US. Some may argue - as Beijing does - that these disputes are none of Washington's business.

Others say China's action, coming so soon after President Barack Obama's "reassurance" visit to the region, is a direct challenge to US credibility. This may be reading too much into it. But what makes such criticism particularly annoying to China is that it comes on the heels of a barrage of hypocritical attacks regarding China's declaration of an air defence identification zone in the East China Sea.

To China, this spate of attacks in the Western press seems part of a preconceived plan to demonise it with the intent to isolate it. Hopefully, cooler heads within governments will prevail and this latest clash of wills will be worked out peacefully. But for those who really want an angry and isolated China, and eventually perhaps war - and there are influential warmongers on all sides - this cacophony of China-bashing is certainly setting the stage.
 

joshuatree

Captain
I have a wild idea and was wondering whether it is feasible from a military standpoint (logistically and defensibility). Currently the Philippines has a boat beached in the Second Thomas Shoal signalling it is Philippines territory (but contested by China). If the US wants to send a signal that it means business, it can beach one of its retired LHA (say USS Nassau) next to the Philippines boat and set it up as a FOB. This will obviously infuriate the Chinese but it will then have to either back down or attack the US if it wants to continue with its plans. I think the term is passive assertiveness.

But doesn't that mean the US is not neutral? Although it really isn't at this point with all the verbal attacks traded around. To play devil's advocate, what if China decides to beach a vessel on the other end of the shoal? Now what? Attack the Chinese vessel?

I think a better idea if the US wants to play any form of mediator is may be getting the claimants involved to agree to joint fishery patrols around the Spratlys so fishermen of any flag won't be mistreated and proper policing of poaching is carried out without the political ramification of sovereignty issues hanging over them. It won't solve the bigger issues but it does address the practical aspects such as fishermen simply wanting to make a living as well as rebuilding some form of trust and goodwill.
 

Brumby

Major
But doesn't that mean the US is not neutral? Although it really isn't at this point with all the verbal attacks traded around. To play devil's advocate, what if China decides to beach a vessel on the other end of the shoal? Now what? Attack the Chinese vessel?

China doesn't need to beach anything. It has structures already planted nearby. The point is, China views the SCS as its exclusive zone (playground) and other kids are not allowed to play in it. Beaching a ship is basically saying it is not exclusive and so start seriously negotiating. The US doesn't need to attack. It just need to undermine China's strategy and to demonstrate resolve.
 

sinowarrior

Junior Member
China doesn't need to beach anything. It has structures already planted nearby. The point is, China views the SCS as its exclusive zone (playground) and other kids are not allowed to play in it. Beaching a ship is basically saying it is not exclusive and so start seriously negotiating. The US doesn't need to attack. It just need to undermine China's strategy and to demonstrate resolve.

And China just repainted/converted a LST into “tug” under the coast guard, may be China is thinking along the similar line.
 
Top