China's SCS Strategy Thread

Brumby

Major
The same can be said of what you believe. Obama has said one thing and done another so there's precedence. And the President does work with the media in exchange for like excusive interviews. Why was there a media chorus calling what the NSA was doing equivalent to what stores do at gathering customer information? That's because the White House gave to allies in the media the talking points to discuss. It's accused of the Chinese who accept at face value what the government says as being an automaton. But in this case it's not even though the same purpose if fulfilled.

I am not defending Obama's policy and how he may or may not use the media to further his goals. Likewise China will use its own propaganda arm to further its goals. The contention is not the medium but the policy per se of containment. If you think that the US is pursuing a containment policy towards China (I personally don't know beyond US stated policy), then all I am saying is please state your case to support such a notion. I just want to acquaint with the substance of your case rather than an expression of opinion.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I am not defending Obama's policy and how he may or may not use the media to further his goals. Likewise China will use its own propaganda arm to further its goals. The contention is not the medium but the policy per se of containment. If you think that the US is pursuing a containment policy towards China (I personally don't know beyond US stated policy), then all I am saying is please state your case to support such a notion. I just want to acquaint with the substance of your case rather than an expression of opinion.

I never use Chinese sources in my arguments so I'm consistently suspicious of what any government says. I'm not going to start believing the romantic nonsense of honor that any government holds out in front of them including the US. Proof? You brought the talk of a containment of China in this discussion. It didn't come from me in here. So if you thought of containment from what I said to then demand I show proof... That's proof.
 

Brumby

Major
Proof? You brought the talk of a containment of China in this discussion. It didn't come from me in here. So if you thought of containment from what I said to then demand I show proof... That's proof.

Your Post (#456). My apologies if I misunderstood what you said was not containment but rather "the media" is at fault for brining it up and you were simply pointing out it is the fault of the media for bringing it up.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Your Post (#456). My apologies if I misunderstood what you said was not containment but rather "the media" is at fault for brining it up and you were simply pointing out it is the fault of the media for bringing it up.

Post 456 doesn't prove I brought up the notion of containment. Your post right before mentions containment to which I replied afterwards. So that proves that you know it has been discussed before from politicians and/or the media for someone like you to argue against. No one would argue it's not happening if someone else wasn't arguing it was happening.
 

Brumby

Major
Post 456 doesn't prove I brought up the notion of containment. Your post right before mentions containment to which I replied afterwards. So that proves that you know it has been discussed before from politicians and/or the media for someone like you to argue against. No one would argue it's not happening if someone else wasn't arguing it was happening.

Thanks for pointing it out. Your even earlier post was in reference to an article which talked about containment (#454) which I then commented (#455) and which you then commented (#456). I agree, you did not initially bring it up - it was the article which you shared that first brought it up. All is good.
 

A.Man

Major
WOW, Is Obama ready to send his daughters to fight China?



Kevin Baron May 30, 2014


Hagel, in Asia, Warns China to Back Down

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SINGAPORE — Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel delivered a sharp warning for China to cease using “intimidation and coercion” to press its claims in the South and East China Seas and drop its self-declared overflight restrictions, or risk destabilizing a region populated by billions.




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Kevin Baron is executive editor of Defense One. A 15-year veteran of Washington’s defense, national security and foreign affairs scene, Baron has covered the military, the Pentagon, Congress and politics for Foreign Policy, National Journal, Stars and Stripes, the Boston Globe’s Washington bureau, ... Full Bio

“The United States will not look the other way when fundamental principles of the international order are being challenged,” Hagel said.


Hagel’s rebuke on China led his lengthy keynote address to the Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore on Saturday, the premier annual conference of Asia-Pacific defense ministers. The territorial standoff in the South and East China Seas was a top agenda item in nearly all of Hagel’s individual meetings with defense counterparts on Friday. Hagel said the region should work toward a “rules based order” and noted China is working with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) toward an agreed naval code of conduct for the seas. But the dispute, and Hagel’s rebuke, falls amid a period of improved military-to-military relations with China that the Pentagon has fought hard to thaw since at least 2009 and is eager to maintain. “Our dialogue is becoming more direct and more constructive…getting at the real issues and delivering more results.”












“One of the most critical tests facing the region is whether nations will choose to resolve disputes through diplomacy and well-established international rules and norms or through intimidation and coercion. Nowhere is this more evident than in the South China Sea, the beating heart of the Asia-Pacific and a crossroads for the global economy.


“China has called the South China Sea ‘a sea of peace, friendship and cooperation.’ And that’s what it should be,” Hagel continued. “But in recent months, China has undertaken destabilizing, unilateral actions asserting its claims in the South China Sea. It has restricted access to Scarborough Reef; put pressure on the long-standing Philippine presence at the Second Thomas Shoal; begun land reclamation activities at multiple locations; and moved an oil rig into disputed waters near the Paracel Islands.


“The United States has been clear and consistent. We take no position on competing territorial claims. But we firmly oppose any nation’s use of intimidation, coercion, or the threat of force to assert these claims.”

In an interview with Japanese television, Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin Dempsey said China’s use of its military complicates things for the worse, according to the Pentagon’s internal news service. “That’s not a positive outcome… We have to confront the fact that that is a path that will inevitably lead to less stability and probably make a diplomatic solution far more complicated.”


Hagel is scheduled to meet with the China’s Lt. Gen. Wang Guanzhong, deputy chief of the General Staff, later Saturday. He also has bilateral meetings with counterparts from Vietnam, South Korea, Malaysia, and Japan, and a trilateral meeting with Japan and South Korea.


The Obama administration’s “rebalance” to the Pacific is now a “reality,” Hagel insisted, giving his justification for the time, money and military resources the United States is investing in the region. Hagel listed the weapons the U.S. is moving into the region, including Global Hawk drones and missile defenses for South Korea, F-35 Joint Strike Fighters for Australia and Japan, and two more ballistic missile defense in Japan, in addition to increasing U.S. ground-based interceptor missiles in Alaska. Hagel also said the U.S. plans to increase foreign military financing by 35 percent and international military education and training, or IMET, by 40 percent by 2016.


Defense Department officials in recent years have tried to lay a foundation to move to the region beyond the hub-and-spoke structure of alliances established in the past century, and this conference is a key site for those discussions. It is unclear, though, to what end. A dream of some may be one day to see an Asian version of NATO. But in the nearer term, a senior defense official said, there is a sense of change among the Asian defense community. What the U.S. wants to see happen is more Asian defense leaders engaging in face-to-face meetings with each other toward collective security, progress building off the ASEAN defense minister’s meetings of the past year, and to get India, usually only a footnote in talks of Asia-Pacific security, “to look east.”
 

A.Man

Major
Chinese general warns that US is making 'important' mistakes in region

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Chinese defense officials reacted furiously to U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel's assertion that China has undertaken destabilizing actions as it pursues its territorial ambitions in the South China Sea.

Rebutting Hagel's remarks, offered in a speech Saturday at the Shangri-La Dialogue, a regional security summit in Singapore, Maj. Gen. Zhu Chenghu told The Wall Street Journal that the charges are "groundless" and that "the Americans are making very, very important strategic mistakes right now" in their approach to China.










Gen. Zhu, who is a professor at China's National Defense University, accused Hagel of hypocrisy in his assessment of the region's security landscape, suggesting that in his view "whatever the Chinese do is illegal, and whatever the Americans do is right."

Rather than lecture and accuse China, Gen. Zhu said that the U.S. "should treat China as an equal partner, instead of as an enemy."

"If you take China as an enemy, China will absolutely become the enemy of the U.S.," he warned. "If the Americans take China as an enemy, we Chinese have to take steps to make ourselves a qualified enemy of the U.S. But if the Americans take China as a friend, China will be a very loyal friend; and if they take China as a partner, China will be a very cooperative partner."

As a two-star general—and a military academic—Gen. Zhu isn't part of China's senior military leadership. But his views reflect the deep sense of mistrust within some parts of the People's Liberation Army toward the Obama administration's "pivot" to Asia, and America's true intentions toward China. China didn't send its top-level defense officials to the Shangri-La gathering, instead relying on a number of English-speaking academics and PLA officers to rebuff accusations against Beijing.

Gen. Zhu's comments were echoed during a spirited question-and-answer session following Hagel's speech. In the session, PLA Maj. Gen. Yao Yunzhu questioned America's repeated claim that it doesn't take sides in territorial disputes, asking how that can be true when the U.S. also claims the disputed islands in the East China Sea are covered by a U.S. treaty with Japan.
 

Brumby

Major
Chinese defense officials reacted furiously to U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel's assertion that China has undertaken destabilizing actions as it pursues its territorial ambitions in the South China Sea.

Rebutting Hagel's remarks, offered in a speech Saturday at the Shangri-La Dialogue, a regional security summit in Singapore, Maj. Gen. Zhu Chenghu told The Wall Street Journal that the charges are "groundless" and that "the Americans are making very, very important strategic mistakes right now" in their approach to China.

Based on what had been reported, Secretary Hagel made four specific accusations :

(i)restricting the Philippines’ access to Scarborough Shoal;
(ii)putting pressure on Manila’s longstanding presence in Second Thomas Shoal;
(iii)beginning land reclamation at various locations ; and
(iv)moving an oil rig into disputed waters with Vietnam.

I think the parties are just talking past each other rather than to each other. China has been very clear on its position. 90 % of the SCS belongs to China based on historical reasons. The problem is the rest of the region and the US don't know how to deal with this position short of going to war.
 

A.Man

Major
U.S. Points the Finger at China for Destabilizing Acts

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The US recently blamed China for “destabilizing actions” in the South China Sea, and has agreed to back a proposal for a more pronounced military presence. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel harshly criticized and denounced China for coercive maneuvers in its air and maritime disputes.


China is locked in disputes with Vietnam, the Philippines, Brunei, and Malaysia over the region’s rich resources. Because of this, Chinese and Vietnamese ships clashed, and one Chinese ship was sunk as a result. “In recent months, China has undertaken destabilizing, unilateral actions asserting its claims in the South China Sea,” Hagel told the annual Shangri-La Dialogue. “The United States will not look the other way when fundamental principles of the international order are being challenged.”

China’s Lieutenant General Wang Guanzhong expressed his annoyance with Hagel’s remarks. “Secretary Hagel, in this kind of public space with many people, openly criticized China without reason. Secretary Hagel’s speech is full of encouragement, incitement for the Asia region’s instability giving rise to a disturbance,” Guanzhong said.

“Over all these years, China has never actively provoked an incident over matters of Chinese sovereignty, territory, and maritime boundaries,” Guanzhong continued. “It’s always been other parties concerned taking the initiative to provoke trouble, and then the Chinese government has had no choice but to respond.”

China’s Xinhua news agency even joined the dispute, accusing the US of flaunting its military dominance to ensure of the safety of its allies. In fact, the US has been in disagreement with China’s handling of several air and maritime disputes for several time now. “We firmly oppose any nation’s use of intimidation, coercion, or the threat of force to assert these claims,” Hagel said.

General Wang and Secretary Hagel briefly met Saturday afternoon to discuss the tension between China and Vietnam, and the oil rig that China placed in disputed territory. Vietnam Deputy Defense Minister Chi Vinh Nguyen told the Financial Times that the oil ring situation was “very serious not only for Vietnam, but also for the region and the world.” Although they only met briefly, the meeting was described as respectful and non-aggressive.

While this situation continues to unfold, China and the US could possibly disagree on more issues. China maintains that its actions were necessary, while the US accuses China of using unnecessary military force to destabilize the South China Sea and the East China Sea.
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
I'll just wait here and see what US has got to do to back up its words. Nobody questions American maritime dominance, but whether the US is determined to use it to protect a poor and powerless ally like the Philippines or a Communist country like Vietnam is another question.

Ultimately it's just a few rocks in the middle of nowhere.

As long as we don't block international freedom of navigation and trade routes passing through the SCS, I highly doubt there will be any serious will from the US to use its might in the SCS.

You talk big, but looking at what happened in Syria and what's happening in Ukraine.

Nah.
 
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