China's SCS Strategy Thread

[Blackstone]

I agree US FONOPS and other intelligence gathering activities are mainly targeted at China, and I think the Trump administration should review the frequency of their use for necessity and effectiveness. If we don't need that many operations for security and intelligence purposes, then it's a good idea to reduce them and lower tensions. On the other hand, China needs to explain how US FONOPS in international waters threatens its sovereignty. UN-based laws don't prohibit gathering of intelligence in international air and waters.

 

[vincent]

I agree US FONOPS and other intelligence gathering activities are mainly targeted at China, and I think the Trump administration should review the frequency of their use for necessity and effectiveness. If we don't need that many operations for security and intelligence purposes, then it's a good idea to reduce them and lower tensions. On the other hand, China needs to explain how US FONOPS in international waters threatens its sovereignty. UN-based laws don't prohibit gathering of intelligence in international air and waters.

How do you feel if your neighbour installed a bunch of cameras and sensitive microphones that point to all your windows? All perfectly legal

 

[Blackstone]

How do you feel if your neighbour installed a bunch of cameras and sensitive microphones that point to all your windows? All perfectly legal

Not remotely the same. Nations are commonly amoral in pursuance of their interests, especially great powers.

 

[vincent]

Not remotely the same. Nations are commonly amoral in pursuance of their interests, especially great powers.

Huh? Just because Uncle Sam is a country doesn't mean it is not acting like a voyeur. What does being a great power have anything to do with it?

 

[kwaigonegin]

How do you feel if your neighbour installed a bunch of cameras and sensitive microphones that point to all your windows? All perfectly legal

Depends.. is she hot? and available?

J/K

 

[Blackstone]

Huh? Just because Uncle Sam is a country doesn't mean it is not acting like a voyeur. What does being a great power have anything to do with it?

Welcome to the real world, where nations pursue their interests, even if they're at others expense. You could stick your head in the sand and cry foul all you want, it makes no difference.

Asian security order since WW2 is based on US primacy, and now that's being challenged by China. US wants to keep it, because it believes that's in the country's national interests to do so. China believes otherwise and understandably wants an end to US primacy; maybe China is willing to share power with America, maybe it wants Chinese primacy. No one outside Zhongnanhai really knows.

So, we have two great powers playing geopolitics in East and SE Asia, FONOPs and security/intelligence gathering are parts of that. You could like it or dislike it, but US will continue the course until it believes the costs of maintaining primacy exceed the benefits. That particular decision is a function of both domestic and international considerations, and the election of Donald Trump is the latest wrinkle in US politics and may affect US primacy considerations.

 

[jobjed]

Welcome to the real world, where nations pursue their interests, even if they're at others expense. You could stick your head in the sand and cry foul all you want, it makes no difference.

Asian security order since WW2 is based on US primacy, and now that's being challenged by China. US wants to keep it, because it believes that's in the country's national interests to do so. China believes otherwise and understandably wants an end to US primacy; maybe China is willing to share power with America, maybe it wants Chinese primacy. No one outside Zhongnanhai really knows.

So, we have two great powers playing geopolitics in East and SE Asia, FONOPs and security/intelligence gathering are parts of that. You could like it or dislike it, but US will continue the course until it believes the costs of maintaining primacy exceed the benefits. That particular decision is a function of both domestic and international considerations, and the election of Donald Trump is the latest wrinkle in US politics and may affect US primacy considerations.

It is just as ethically acceptable for countries to provoke each other with close proximity spying and FONOP as it is for your neighbour to keep you under very public and constant surveillance. Which is; not at all acceptable. Nonetheless, there are plenty of weirdos out there who set up surveillance rigs on their neighbours with intention to intimidate and plenty of countries that execute provocative spying and FONOP missions. Both are legal, both are ethically deplorable, and both are done nonetheless. I guess that's just the way the world is; asshole behaviour exists and we'll just have to deal with them in due course.

Vincent isn't talking about what is done and what isn't. He's talking about what should be done but often isn't, namely, minding your own goddamned business. I don't see how your comment rebuts his. The US practises voyeuristic behaviour characteristic of asshole neighbours; you can't deny this at all.

 

[weig2000]

Asian security order since WW2 is based on US primacy, and now that's being challenged by China.

That's a self-serving narrative sold by the mainstream media, but was far from true. Unlike in Europe, the US barely has any foothold on Asian continent, and has never won a war in Asia (a standstill in Korea Peninsula, a lost war in Vietnam). That's also why Robert Gates advised against any future land adventure in Asia by the US. The US has had some strongholds in Asia peripheral and Pacific, notably Japan, Philippines (not now), Guam, but the ex-Soviet Navy posed strong challenges to the USN in the Pacific.

Asia was divided during the Cold War, with the continent largely controlled and dominated by the communist blocks, while the US and its allies had upper-hand in the Pacific. It was far from "based on US primacy" and it is not now - it has a strong presence to be sure, but is increasingly worried about its weakening influence, then the pivot to Asia.

 

[vincent]

It is just as ethically acceptable for countries to provoke each other with close proximity spying and FONOP as it is for your neighbour to keep you under very public and constant surveillance. Which is; not at all acceptable. Nonetheless, there are plenty of weirdos out there who set up surveillance rigs on their neighbours with intention to intimidate and plenty of countries that execute provocative spying and FONOP missions. Both are legal, both are ethically deplorable, and both are done nonetheless. I guess that's just the way the world is; asshole behaviour exists and we'll just have to deal with them in due course.

Vincent isn't talking about what is done and what isn't. He's talking about what should be done but often isn't, namely, minding your own goddamned business. I don't see how your comment rebuts his. The US practises voyeuristic behaviour characteristic of asshole neighbours; you can't deny this at all.

To add to that, Uncle Sam should stop bitching when China send planes/ships to play bumper cars. It's in international space so everyone has the right to go where they want, including cutting in front of you.

 

[Blackstone]

It is just as ethically acceptable for countries to provoke each other with close proximity spying and FONOP as it is for your neighbour to keep you under very public and constant surveillance. Which is; not at all acceptable. Nonetheless, there are plenty of weirdos out there who set up surveillance rigs on their neighbours with intention to intimidate and plenty of countries that execute provocative spying and FONOP missions. Both are legal, both are ethically deplorable, and both are done nonetheless. I guess that's just the way the world is; asshole behaviour exists and we'll just have to deal with them in due course.

Vincent isn't talking about what is done and what isn't. He's talking about what should be done but often isn't, namely, minding your own goddamned business. I don't see how your comment rebuts his. The US practises voyeuristic behaviour characteristic of asshole neighbours; you can't deny this at all.

Here are the facts, whether individuals like them or not. US has the legal right to collect intelligence and run FONOPs in international air and waters. US chooses to do so for national security and interest reasons. You could throw fluff and temper tantrums all you like, it doesn't change the facts.