China's SCS Strategy Thread

solarz

Brigadier
oh is it really? then I can repeat after Clausewitz: War is continuation of politics by other means, 1826 (not sure about the year, that's how I remembered it)

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Taking over disputed territory does not necessarily mean war, especially in a case like the SCS where the disputed territories are uninhabited to begin with.

Canada built a lighthouse on Machias Seal Island, but the US also claims the territory and "patrols" it with tour boats. So far, the two nations haven't declared war on each other.

In fact, most territorial disputes consist of one nation having a presence while the other disputing the claim. So how did the former nation have a presence to begin with, if not through so-called "unilateral takeovers"?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The US plan to contain China is unraveling fast. Today in Japan Duterte reiterated his plan to remove US troop from Philippine. I saw the joint declaration with Abe . Where they both said what they want.
His plan to realigned Philippine foreign policy has been in making for a long time.But China is much closer to Philippine than Japan both geographically and figuratively."You can choose your friend but you cannot choose your neighbor". And one of the delegate that accompanied his visit said. We always have a close relationship with China and for many of us a connection as well. Apparently she is a Tsinoy
From Quartz
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Long before he was elected president, Rodrigo Duterte let Beijing know the South China Sea was theirs
philippines-president-rodrigo-duterte-in-china-e1477414373198.jpg

Right in step, all along. (Reuters/Thomas Peter)
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October 25, 2016

Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte has made frequent appearances in the international headlines in the past few months. Since coming to power in late June, the former Davao City has mayor has come across as wildly unpredictable at times, with his
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, emotional outbursts, and his seemingly sudden
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.

The latter has certainly been newsworthy, but it hasn’t been surprising—at least to anyone who happened to watch a news segment by CCTV News, China’s state broadcaster, posted online in May.
“The guy is saying exactly what he’s saying now,” said Richard Javad Heydarian, a political scientist at De La Salle University in Manila. “It’s not like he was hiding anything. It’s just that people in the Philippines were not paying attention.”

In the video Duterte (coming in at the 1:33 mark) questions the usefulness of a case then winding its way through an international tribunal, in which Manila challenged China’s maritime aggression against the Philippines. He notes that any decision the tribunal reaches would be unenforceable by the United Nations.

“If we cannot enforce, and if the United Nations cannot enforce its judgment, then what the heck?” he says in the video. “What are we supposed to do? Just sit there and wait for somebody to take our cudgels and go to war or demand obedience from China? For what?”

The CCTV segment narrator adds (at the 1:55 mark), “And if it were up to him, he says he would not count on the Americans coming to the Philippines’s rescue, and would have even considered dropping an arbitration case the Aquino administration filed against China.”

The timing of this is important. Heydarian, who also appeared in the segment, said he was interviewed for it in early May. The CCTV reporter told himDuterte’s interview was conducted earlier, in March or February. Duterte, described in the segment as the frontrunner, won the election in late May, taking office in late June. The tribunal issued its ruling in mid-July. So Duterte had made up his mind about the case, whatever the outcome, well before the ruling was issued or he won the election—and Beijing knew it all along.

The
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by the Philippines in 2013, under the administration of then-president Benigno Aquino III, and in response to aggressive tactics by China in the South China Sea. Handling the case was the Permanent Court of Arbitration in the Hague, ruling under the
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(UNCLOS).

In 2012 China
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, a strategically located reef near the Philippine coast, and started
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from operating there, even though they’d relied on the area’s rich fishing grounds for generations. It also prevented Philippine attempts to explore for oil and and natural gas within its own exclusive economic zone (EEZ), despite the country’s sole right to natural resources there, per UNCLOS.

China insists that a “
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” it has drawn, encompassing most of the sea, defines its territory, even if it overlaps with another nation’s EEZ, as it does
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of the Philippines’ zone. China is insisting on “joint development” of the resources—claiming, in effect, a cut of the profits from the Philippines’ assets.

spratly-paracel-scarborough-v3.png

A contested sea.
The tribunal
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that China’s actions were illegal under UNCLOS, and it invalidated the nine-dash line. The Philippines erupted in celebration, with #chexit (“China exit”)
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on social media and the international community calling upon Beijing to abide by the ruling. With
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passing through the sea annually, many nations have a vested interest in keeping it open, and are unsettled by China’s claim.

Beijing vowed to ignore the decision and pressured others to do the same. Still, it was easy to imagine at the time that Beijing was sweating bullets over the tribunal’s ruling, though as the CCTV segment suggests, it probably never was. Perhaps Manila wouldleverage the legal victory to rally international public opinion against China, and help other nations around the South China Sea, like Vietnam and Malaysia, bring their own legal fights against China’s maritime aggression.

Beijing insisted all along on bilateral negotiations only, with no outside third party involved—especially some international tribunal. That policy went for the Philippines as well as for any other claimant nation in the sea. But many in the Philippines were against this, noting the arrangement would give far too much power to China, which dwarfs the Philippines economically and militarily and could easily overpower it in any negotiations or conflict—as it could most Southeast Asian nations.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)
Right after the July 12 ruling, the Philippines’ lead lawyer in the case, Paul Reichler, laid out a scenario in which the Philippines and other claimant nations around the South China Sea could band together against China’s aggression:

“If these other states stand up for their rights in the way that the Philippines has done, you get a situation where all of the relevant neighboring states are insisting that China withdraw its illegal claims and respect their legal rights, which have been defined and recognized and acknowledged today because those states have the same rights as the Philippines. It will depend to a great extent on how vigorously that all of the affected states—all of the states who have been prejudiced by the nine-dash line—assert their rights against China. When I use words like ‘vigorous’ and ‘assert,’ I’m talking about diplomatically, legally, and, above all, peacefully… If the other states refuse to be intimidated and continue to insist that their rights under the Law of the Sea convention be respected by China, as well as the rights of the Philippines, if they can work together in unity, you may see a different response from China in six months or in a year, or two years”

But Duterte, for whatever reason, ignored this notion of international teamwork,
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as a choice between either going to war with China, or negotiating directly with it.

So it appears that for both Duterte and Beijing, the ecstatic reaction to the legal “victory” was, all along, a passing phasethey simply had to patiently wait out.

Last week—about 90 days after coming to power—Duterte made his first state visit to a major country. Not surprisingly, it was China. Actually it was surprising, to those unaware of what Duterte’s intentions were all along, because traditionally a state visit to longtime ally the United States would come first. But it was not surprising to anyone who saw the segment on CCTV—a state broadcaster controlled by Beijing.

Many have supposed that Duterte moved away from the US and toward China because of US criticism over Duterte’s
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, with its flagrant human rights violations and extrajudicial killings. But as the CCTV segment suggests, Duterte was leaning toward China regardless.

Duterte seems more concerned with getting help from Beijing with developing infrastructure,
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, than with defending his nation’s legal rights in the South China Sea. Indeed last week he suggested the tribunal ruling was nothing more than a “
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”—dismissing the ruling much as he did the case earlier this year.

“Multilateral or bilateral, it’s the same,” he said in the CCTV interview in May. “We have to talk and what I need from China is not anger. What I need from China is help to develop my country.”
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The time of the US in the sun has come and is going away soon. It could have stayed longer at the pinnacle of the world but its irresponsible politicians are spending money it doesn't have, enslaving future generations with unrepayable debt, and slowly but surely turning US credit rating into trash. A dollar crisis is coming, mark my words. China will soon have its historical place in the sun restored as long as its politicians are more responsible than the US Congress.
I heard this stuff in the 1970s oil shock and stagflation. Heard it again in the 1980s where Japan was supposed to eclipse America. Fast forward to today, and there's a new generation of history-challenged people troting out the same old tripe. Problem is, their wishful thinking fly against reality. And what is reality? To name just a few, America has favorable demographics. America's productivity continues to rise. America is more innovative and inventive, and will stretch its lead. And America's higher education system is without peer.

America isn't in decline. Relative to most of the world, it is still rising, with favorable long-term advantages its rivals can't match. What about the current social and political mess you ask? The periodic bloodletting between We The People and the ruling elites actually strengthen the Republic, along Thomas Jefferson's 'tree of liberty periodically refreshed by blood of patriots and tyrants.' America's sun is still rising.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I heard this stuff in the 1970s oil shock and stagflation. Heard it again in the 1980s where Japan was supposed to eclipse America. Fast forward to today, and there's a new generation of history-challenged people troting out the same old tripe. Problem is, their wishful thinking fly against reality. And what is reality? To name just a few, America has favorable demographics. America's productivity continues to rise. America is more innovative and inventive, and will stretch its lead. And America's higher education system is without peer.

America isn't in decline. Relative to most of the world, it is still rising, with favorable long-term advantages its rivals can't match. What about the current social and political mess you ask? The periodic bloodletting between We The People and the ruling elites actually strengthen the Republic, along Thomas Jefferson's 'tree of liberty periodically refreshed by blood of patriots and tyrants.' America's sun is still rising.

It's not so much the US is in decline as the US has been enjoying almost 3 decades of unchallenged supremacy, which is slowly coming to an end.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
I saw the joint declaration with Abe . Where they both said what they want.
You know, like "When [hard] times will come we will stand by Japan's side" talk which makes PRC purr.

He's still waiting for money from China. From Japan there's steady influx for years. And PRC only gives 'hopes' so far...
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
There's no such thing as a "non-unilateral takeover" of disputed territory, unless you mean a coalition of parties on one side.
You're the only one who's been talking about "bilateral takeovers" and "non-unilateral takeovers". Why beat on this straw man when it doesn't even exist and nobody is claiming it does?

Furthermore, a bilateral agreement is only contrasted with a multilateral agreement. There's no such thing as a "unilateral agreement", which is an oxymoron.
You're just parsing words here. Let me put it this way. There are two eventual outcomes of a SCS dispute. First, both countries agree that one of them should have the island in dispute; this is a bilateral agreement. Second, one country unilaterally takes over an island without agreement from the other claimant; this is a unilateral takeover. There is no need to contrast the first possibility with any "multilateral agreement"; this would be nonsensical given there are only two claimants. The first possibility is rightly contrasted against the second possibility.

You mistake authority with power. The US has power, but it does not have the authority. You can disregard authority if you have enough power, but that doesn't mean you suddenly become the new authority.
Your mistake is assuming authority can exist without power. In a perfect theoretical universe where old ladies always get walked across the street and kittens never get punted, this may be the case. But in the actual, cold, hard universe of international realpolitik, one does not exist without the other. One has NEVER existed without the other. The Golden Rule of politics has been around as long as there has been politics.

I heard this stuff in the 1970s oil shock and stagflation. Heard it again in the 1980s where Japan was supposed to eclipse America. Fast forward to today, and there's a new generation of history-challenged people troting out the same old tripe. Problem is, their wishful thinking fly against reality. And what is reality? To name just a few, America has favorable demographics. America's productivity continues to rise. America is more innovative and inventive, and will stretch its lead. And America's higher education system is without peer.

America isn't in decline. Relative to most of the world, it is still rising, with favorable long-term advantages its rivals can't match. What about the current social and political mess you ask? The periodic bloodletting between We The People and the ruling elites actually strengthen the Republic, along Thomas Jefferson's 'tree of liberty periodically refreshed by blood of patriots and tyrants.' America's sun is still rising.
You want to know what reality is? Google image M1, M2, and M3 money supply. Make sure you get graphs with dates starting in the early 1900s. If you don't know already how to interpret what you see, go and learn "exponential increase" and "hockey stick moment" and what this means for the US economy. What happened in 2008 was NEVER fixed. Derivatives are more voluminous than ever before. This isn't oil shock or Japanophobia; they are minor blips in US history. We are now at the precipice of the end of the King Dollar. Countries are leaving the USD like rats fleeing a sinking ship. Numerous countries are setting up bilateral and multilateral currency exchanges cutting the USD out of transactions altogether. Countries like China, Russia, and India are using USD to buy up all the physical gold in the world like there is no tomorrow. IMF is slowly but surely manuevering to set up the SDR to replace the USD as the world's main reserve currency. All of this has only started happening in the last several years. If the USD is so strong, why are so many countries leaving it behind? The answer is because it's not. Meanwhile we are sliding headlong into yet another recession. Yellen wants to keep her job so she will wait till after November to admit the US economy is anything but rosy. In any other economy in any other time both Hillary and Donald would have been turned out on the street by the end of the primaries. Not this time. Desperation is now driving voters on both ends of the political spectrum towards these two utterly flawed candidates. Desperation that is borne of privation.

BTW America does NOT have favorable demographics. Its fertility rate is below replacement. Its population growth is sustained by immigration alone. Its supposedly vaunted university system is propped up on life support by immigrants from China, India, and Eastern Europe. Meanwhile American fathers and mothers would rather their kids be the next Tom Brady rather than the next Richard Feynman. You may not have much contact with university graduate programs in the US but if you did you would know this. Try going into any graduate lab and look at the ethnicities represented there. Both China and India are piling on large sums of money to attract these people back to their native countries, and the brain drain has already started reversing.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
You know, like "When [hard] times will come we will stand by Japan's side" talk which makes PRC purr.

He's still waiting for money from China. From Japan there's steady influx for years. And PRC only gives 'hopes' so far...

Duterte has to be polite and did say nice thing to please the host.He said the SCS has to be solved peacefully and he stand with Japan on SCS issue nothing about hard time. Beijing has no problem with that

Interesting but how much did Japan give aid to Phillipine. A pittance of 340 million and it is LOAN and not grant meaning they have to be paid back.

To add insult to injury. Manila is the headquarter of ADB a Japanese backed development bank and has been for years. They must have seen how poor the Fillipino are. Yet all these year what have they done?
Hey they have no problem exploiting Fillipino low wages building widget. But building infrastructure ?

Japan is an aging society and they desperately need nurses to care for the elderly . Phillipine has well qualified nurses But due to their racist immigration policy they don't make it easier Fillipino to work in Japan. Talking about helping fellow Asian

Japan's Contribution to Economic Assistance Received by the Philippines



ODA (2008)

(USD MILLIONS)



stat%20of%20oda%201.jpg


SOURCE

OECD- DAC, on a commitment basis (2008)

  • The pie chart indicates the breakdown of ODA for the Philippines by donor in all the forms (loans, grant aid, and technical assistance), based on the statistics of DAC (Development Assistance Committee) of OECD in 2008.
  • This pie chart shows that Japan continued to be the top ODA donor in 2008, accounting for 33.1%.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Despite constitute only1% of whole population, Chinese Fillipino control so much of the economy and employed million of Fillipino. All of them about 400 Tycoon went with Duterte and How many of them went to Japan?.
The Chinese domination of economy is even bigger in Malaysia,Indonesia or Thailand, Laos, Cambodia
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Despite constituting a small fraction of the country's population, the Chinese Filipinos have a disproportionate impact on both trade and industry. Many stores and restaurants, as well as factories and manufacturing firms are owned by Chinese Filipinos, who are estimated to control 50 to 60 percent of non-land share capital in the Philippines, and as much as 35 percent of all total sales in the Philippines are attributed to firms owned by the ethnic Chinese, who essentially focus largely on retail, light manufacturing, casinos and to a much lesser extent, semiconductors and chemicals, real estate, land, and property development, banking, engineering, construction, fiber, textiles, finance, consumer electronics, food, and personal computers.
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In the Philippines, ethnic Chinese are estimated to control over one-third of the 1000 largest corporations.
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In the Philippines, Chinese entrepreneurs control 47 of the 68 locally owned public companies.
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Chinese owned companies account for 66% of the sixty largest commercial entities.
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The economic power of the Chinese Filipino community is portrayed by American writer
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who said that "the country's four major airlines and almost all of the country's banks, hotels, shopping malls, and major business conglomerates" are owned by the Chinese. In addition, they dominate "the shipping, textiles, construction, real estate, pharmaceutical, manufacturing, and personal computer industries as well as the country's wholesale distribution networks and six out of the ten English-language newspapers in Manila, including the one with the largest circulation
."
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Of 66% remaining part of the economy in the Philippines by either ethnic Chinese or Filipinos, the Chinese control 35% of all total sales.
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Among the nation's 35 banks, ethnic Chinese on average control 35% of total banking equity.
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In the Secondary Industry, seventy-five percent of the country's 2,500 rice mills were Chinese-owned. Chinese Filipino entrepreneurs were also dominant in wood processing, and accounted for over 10% of the capital invested in the lumber industry as also accounted for 40% of the industry's annual output and controlled nearly all the sawmills in the nation. Emerging import-substituting light industries would see the rise of active participation of Chinese entrepreneurs and owned several-salt works and a large number of small and medium-sized factories engaged in food processing as well as the production of leather and tobacco goods. By the early 1960s, Chinese presence in the manufacturing sector became significant. Of the businesses that employed 10 or more workers, 35% were Chinese-owned, and, in another study of 284 enterprises employing more than 100 workers, 37% were likewise Chinese-owned. Of the 163 domestic companies, 80 were Chinese-owned and included the manufacturing of coconut oil, some food
 
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