China's military is wasteful

I think... if you look at the amount of $ spent per solider in the PLA, it's far less than Western European, Japan, or US. Kinda hard to say that they're being wasteful. @_@?

But yeah, I think it's better to have a smaller, leaner, better trained, and better equipped all volunteer force. Seriously, nobody threatens PRC's existence today, and it'd only get into wars of its own choosing.

At the same time, I also think they should create a national service program and incorporate it into high school. How to implement this is subject to debate, but I think it should be in senior year or when the kids are 18. I don't mind scaling back academia classes back a little bit to make room for such a program in HS.

The national service program I have in mind is somewhat similar to what Malaysia attempted to implement. I'd like to see a 12 month program for both genders, including 3 months of boot camp (physical training, basic firearms handling), 3 months of continued education, 3 months of social service (tree plating, elderly care, etc), and 3 months of career exploration (learn how to drive a truck/bus, operate machinery, etc).

It's also important that the young adults in the program are sent to a camp AWAY from home, like, to another state/province. Kids these days stay with their parents for too long and turn into parasite singles. The national service program away from home can function as a rite of passage.

This program will be costly, but it's an investment in developing your own nation's human capital. I think it's worth every penny.

Many of the demobilized PLA soldiers are going into PAP. So some of the effect is reduced. As to the comparison with Russia, I don't think it is very valid. Up until the past few years, Russia's military has been on a starvation diet. I wouldn't call it efficient, more like, negligent.

I think everybody should watch that video if he can, it's almost 2 hours in length and the audience are not regular folks but senior PLA officiers. The title is not something of daily life but "China's national defence in the new century", the lecturing guy is a senior PLA strategic analyzer, a well-known general in national stragetic research, a PLA speakperson and one of the most familiar armed force face on Chinese TV. What he was doing is to brief the PLA's strategic thinking regarding to China's national defence, and there is nothing in recent years like this more explictly stating what China's national defence position is.

He is not talking about saving a few bucks here and there, but how China will handle the threat to its national security. He talks about the Opium War, the Boxer Rebellion, the Sino-Japanese war, the bombing of Chinese embassy, the threat to bomb the Three Gorge Dam.......It's a whole-spectrum analysis and gives the conclusion drawn based on them. Clearly he emphazes Chinese won't just sit there waiting for enemy's attack, or just enhance their defence facilities to prepare for enemy's attack, but will launch offense with all available means, to inflict the tit for tat damage to the enemies. I'ven't see anything in recent years with such clear and explict statements, but it all follows the trend of PLA's thinking if you're really watching PLA closely in past 10 years.

He is explictly advocating the use of nuclear weapons, both as stragetic deterrence and tactic means, and promoting to expand Chinese nuclear force significantly. He is explictly saying China should abandon the not-first-use policy and states it's obsolete, the value of nuclear weapons are on the battle field. Obviously PLA is shifting its strategy and is more ready to use the big sticks - China is no longer an all-time-smiling gentleman but prepares to show the teeth. And this is not something strange or new most Chinese are already fed up and feel enough is enough, nuke is nuke, PLA just reflects that mode of Chinese society.

The last point, this is not something you can watch on daily basis. This is the internal PLA birefing and they kept that secret for 3 years already and there is no reason they can't keep it secret for another 30 years. The release of the video is fully endorced by the highest authority no doubt about it - they just want Chinese to understand what they intend to do, and, be prepared. And at last, it's not about saving money.

fishhead said:

Quite a few PLA generals publicly advocate the using of nuclear weapons in recent years, and nobody is in opposition of it. Considering PLA has a strict discipline regarding to the individual officer's view, especially expressed in public domin, what they said is definitely not just their personal views.

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Yes they were. General Zhu was publicly reprimanded. Xiong (I believe) was never promoted again despite before being likely candidate and highflyer.

It is possible that certain faction within PLA may wish to do this, but when China has such smaller arsenal, you must think Chinese leadership stupidly belligerent to threaten use of nuclear weapons against America (as both these officers did, regarding issue of Taiwan).

ABC78 said:

flyzies is right espiaclly with peasant revolts on the rise. The massive demobolization of troops in an economy that already has 10% unemployment could lead to more problems. Look at Iraq when the entire army and police force were disbanded after the fall of Bagdad. Those who were laid off join the mitlias. China does not need armed and militarly organized revolts.

Also the Russian Army does not defend Russia it's Nuclear arsenal does. The Russian Army couldn't crush the Cheyian sepritist and a significant portion of the Russian Military goes unpaid while it's surface and sub fleets rust in the ports.

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Concur - Russian military is not efficient, it has no money spent of it because it cannot be afforded. Recruits are treated poorly and morale is often low. Just looking at new weapons procurement rate and you can tell how 'efficient' it is.

However the social aspects of demobilization is I think exaggerated. Even suppose say 500,000 men are demobilized. Out of China's working population of, what, a few hundred millions? It is minuscule.

Troika said:

Yes they were. General Zhu was publicly reprimanded. Xiong (I believe) was never promoted again despite before being likely candidate and highflyer.

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That's somebody's imagination or propaganda, neither of them were reprimanded, general Xiong was actually promoted as President Jiang's chief military advisor and only retired by his age.

The following is Chinese foreign ministry spokeperson's respond to general Zhu's speech:

1. It's general Zhu's personal opinion, Chinese government never says that
2. General Zhu's pre-condition is somebody got involved in the war regarding Taiwan, and Taiwan is China's internal affair. Anybody fights war with China about Taiwan will lead to the Chinese strongest count-attack.
3. We're not expecting the war, but we're not afraid of war.

Nothing shows Zhu was "publicly reprimanded".

The first-use of nuclear weapons is extremely delicate issue.
While i dont disagree with what Fishhead and Roger have said in regards to this issue, it is imperative to keep in mind China's boarder goals as a rising power. Chinese leaders are playing the "soft-power" card very well at the moment, and this involves showing you are no threat to any country or the world...abandoning no 1st use policy would throw this out the window.
PLA's massive modernisation program is already causing some chills down spines of China's neighbours...so CCP needs to walk a fine line here.

I think the best way for China to proceed in this matter is to blur the lines of where nukes will be used without abandoning the no 1st use policy.

flyzies said:

The first-use of nuclear weapons is extremely delicate issue.
While i dont disagree with what Fishhead and Roger have said in regards to this issue, it is imperative to keep in mind China's boarder goals as a rising power. Chinese leaders are playing the "soft-power" card very well at the moment, and this involves showing you are no threat to any country or the world...abandoning no 1st use policy would throw this out the window.
PLA's massive modernisation program is already causing some chills down spines of China's neighbours...so CCP needs to walk a fine line here.

I think the best way for China to proceed in this matter is to blur the lines of where nukes will be used without abandoning the no 1st use policy.

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Well this is probably that very thing. Everybody knows that the Generals speak with party sanction and so get the prospect of nuclear first strike out there into public consciousness, but without a senior Government member having to do it overtly and on the record and with possible diplomatic repercussions. The ultimate desired effect however is achieved.

ABC78 said:

Also the Russian Army does not defend Russia it's Nuclear arsenal does.

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Exactly, this is much more efficient use of resources than the way the PLA. You can cut the PLA by 400,000 personnel by having a more flexible nuclear doctrine.

Anybody who threatens Russia's interests, the first thing they think of is its nuclear arsenal. And the Russians are not shy about reminding the world about it.

The Chinese would do well to emulate the Russians doctrine, since it saves them a lot of money spend on keeping a big army.

(The PAP is also too big -- they can probably be cut in half or reassigned to more civilian public sector roles.)

Roger604 said:

Exactly, this is much more efficient use of resources than the way the PLA. You can cut the PLA by 400,000 personnel by having a more flexible nuclear doctrine.

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Just watch the video, the general spent half of hour talking about the Three Gorge Dam. He mentioned that nobody dares to threat Russian dams but they joked about Chinese Three Gorge Dam.

And what he said? PLA won't spend resources on defending the dams, but instead will order more H-Bombs, that's the answer.

fishhead said:

Just watch the video, the general spent half of hour talking about the Three Gorge Dam. He mentioned that nobody dares to threat Russian dams but they joked about Chinese Three Gorge Dam.

And what he said? PLA won't spend resources on defending the dams, but instead will order more H-Bombs, that's the answer.

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I'm not sure how your post is responsive to my post. I watched the whole lecture.

Are you saying that this lecture was released to hint to the rest of the world that these ideas have become mainstream PLA doctrine... and so we will likely see more personnel cuts as PLA adopts a more flexible nuclear doctrine?