China's military is wasteful

Yes, we know about that. There is a Q-5 nuclear bomber in a Beijing museum besides. And there also has been H-6 nuclear bombers.

I doubt that the nuclear Q-5s are still operational today. It seems like a special unit made when the possibility of a war with the Soviet Union loomed likely. Today, the value of a nuclear Q-5 is heavily in question. The plane lacks the range for a deep strike, and loaded with a 1 ton bomb and fuel tanks, its is extremely vulnerable to SAMs and marauding interceptors.

At the same time, there is no indication that the nuclear H-6s (H-6A, H-6E) is still operational. All the H-6s of late have been cruise missile carriers and we have not seen any H-6 of late dropping free fall bombs.

There may be a final option for the PLAAF planes to carry nukes, but it does not appear to be the standing policy. You have to understand that both the Soviet Union and the US actually have an "air force" within the air force that acts as the strategic arm. This arm, with its bombers, personnel and specially designated air bases, are the ones authorized to handle nuclear weapons, and not just any driver in an F-16 or Su-27. The PLAAF on the other hand, lacks such a prominent "strategic" air force that is nuclear "trusted" and with the planes with sufficient long range deep strike capability. Again you have to see the reasons for this, why the PLAAF never developed a dedicated full nuclear strategic arm, and this reason also sheds light as to why the PLAN never developed a full standing boomer fleet too.

2nd Artillery still controls the primacy of nuclear weapons. Period. The CCP never saw the reason to invest huge sums for both a strategic nuclear air force and boomer fleet, when and logically in fact---a simple rocket force can do the job.

Also the problem isn't just defections. The peak of defections has no relevance compared to the possibility of defection because just one defection already makes one major embarrassment. Much more of concern vs. defections, is someone turning rogue and decided on his cognitive free will, to use such a weapon on a Chinese city or his own government, or try to start World War III on his own.

crobato, you have too many speculations in your claims, which is really a bad tradition of CDF. I never quote those dubious fighures as proving of anything, it is groundless for a serious discussion. I list a few:

"China having 400 warheads"
"I have never heard or seen the actual PLA having tactical nukes"
"The 900 or so missiles that are aimed at Taiwan"
"if the PLA was following Soviet doctrine"
"The DF-9 are controlled directly by the PLA alone, and not the 2nd Artillery"

I don't want to spend too much time to prove they're dubious claims, all I am doing is to prove it's not true to claim "that's the reason why China's nuclear arsenal is entrusted and controlled by a unique branch of the military called the 2nd Artillery, which is not answerable to the PLA but to the CMC directly."

I have proved that is wrong. Before 1968, Chinese nuclear weapons were controlled by PLAAF and Army solely. 2nc Artillary actually played little role in the Sino-Soviet conflict, since it was just set up for 2 years and liquid rockets are highly unreliable and take longer time to prepare than an airplane strike. And not just PLAAF had more nukes at that time PLA Army also had a lot of nukes as well.

I have the habit of basing my claim on the fact as much as possible. Read Xinhua official report, how China developed its airbone nuke force, how they use Q5 as the crediable means to deliver nukes:


And actually, China's first H-bomb was droped by Q-5A on June 17, 1967, with the yield of 3.3m TNT tons. In late 1960s, Q-5 was the only crediable way to deliver H-bombs, not missiles.



I think before middle of 1970s, PLAAF was the main force to deliver nuclear amnunations.

Fishhead, that was way back in the sixties and seventies. How many reorganizations had then? Right now you cannot find any report PLAAF, PLA or PLAN deploying nuclear weapons in its modern form. Once the rockets have proven to be much more viable in transporting nukes than Q-5s, the emphasis shifted to rocketry. And for good reason. Q-5s aren't viable for modern nuke delivery and so are H-6s.

And why don't you check up the ORBAT of 2nd Artillery? The smallest missile they control are DF-15s. That means the DF-9s are under direct PLA control and are considered tactical.

It makes perfect sense for China to build up its military forces because of the US's preemptive attack policy..., I mean basically every nation in the world is threatened, as long as the US believe the country is sided with "terrorism". Problem is : US does not even need to prove its allegation, from past we have seen military action is taken out not because there is a real threat, but only because the US believe there is a threat. The US is the only super power in the world that has the ability to strike any target at anytime, and it is definitely not restrained from using that force.
even if China cut all of its military forces tomorrow, as long as the US believe there is a threat, it will make no difference.
China has been depicted as "the biggest lost in Axis of evil" in US media and negative propaganda against China has been going on for decades in US TV and radios. If tomorrow a story comes up saying China is providing asylum for Bin LAdin...the chances are 99% of Americans are willing to believe that. I mean...who knows, if US force did not get stuck in Iraq, the BOMB might have dropped on Chinese ppls' head long time ago

crobato said:

Fishhead, that was way back in the sixties and seventies. How many reorganizations had then? Right now you cannot find any report PLAAF, PLA or PLAN deploying nuclear weapons in its modern form. Once the rockets have proven to be much more viable in transporting nukes than Q-5s, the emphasis shifted to rocketry. And for good reason. Q-5s aren't viable for modern nuke delivery and so are H-6s.

And why don't you check up the ORBAT of 2nd Artillery? The smallest missile they control are DF-15s. That means the DF-9s are under direct PLA control and are considered tactical.

Click to expand...

crobato, I am not denying that today most of nukes are controlled by 2nd Artillery. My point is, it's not due to other units are not trusted by CMC, but due to the fact that missiles are the most efficient way to deliver nukes. The PLA history shows that PLAAF used to control nukes, they even have single-seat Q-5 to drop them. This is the place I have dispute with you.

Also today PLAAF still has some nuke bombs, for the tactic reason. Since some places around China can't be covered by short-range missile, and moving missile there by land takes a lot of time, airborne nuke bombs are the most efficient way. No point to use strategic missiles here.

I think 2nd Artillery has both DF-11 and DF-15, both are tactic missiles. Not sure what DF-9 is.

martialartcow said:

It makes perfect sense for China to build up its military forces because of the US's preemptive attack policy..., I mean basically every nation in the world is threatened, as long as the US believe the country is sided with "terrorism". Problem is : US does not even need to prove its allegation, from past we have seen military action is taken out not because there is a real threat, but only because the US believe there is a threat. The US is the only super power in the world that has the ability to strike any target at anytime, and it is definitely not restrained from using that force.
even if China cut all of its military forces tomorrow, as long as the US believe there is a threat, it will make no difference.
China has been depicted as "the biggest lost in Axis of evil" in US media and negative propaganda against China has been going on for decades in US TV and radios. If tomorrow a story comes up saying China is providing asylum for Bin LAdin...the chances are 99% of Americans are willing to believe that. I mean...who knows, if US force did not get stuck in Iraq, the BOMB might have dropped on Chinese ppls' head long time ago

Click to expand...

Dude...thats way too political for this forum

fishhead said:

crobato, I am not denying that today most of nukes are controlled by 2nd Artillery. My point is, it's not due to other units are not trusted by CMC, but due to the fact that missiles are the most efficient way to deliver nukes. The PLA history shows that PLAAF used to control nukes, they even have single-seat Q-5 to drop them. This is the place I have dispute with you.

Also today PLAAF still has some nuke bombs, for the tactic reason. Since some places around China can't be covered by short-range missile, and moving missile there by land takes a lot of time, airborne nuke bombs are the most efficient way. No point to use strategic missiles here.

I think 2nd Artillery has both DF-11 and DF-15, both are tactic missiles. Not sure what DF-9 is.

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DF-9 is the original way to monicker the CSS-7 what is correctly the DF-11 now.

According to this, China has 400 nukes, 250 of them are strategic, loaded on missiles, 150 of them tactical, carried as bombs.



So you are correct that at one time the PLAAF can carry nuclear weapons.

But today, the nuclear capable Q-5s are long gone, and none of the new ones have been nuke cleared. The same goes with the H-6s and none of the new H-6s have been adapted. Neither are the JH-7s, Su-27s or the Su-30MKKs. So how come there is no follow up?

Maybe at one point, nukes have been trusted to another service besides the 2nd Artillery, but today, there is very little nuclear adaption of any other weapons system outside of the 2nd Artillery. The key is what I am asking you, how does the current CMC view the nuclear "trust" with the 2nd Artillery and the main PLA. Now, today.

Dude...thats way too political for this forum

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Ya, cut out the politics. I dont want to intervene any more into this one

crobato said:

According to this, China has 400 nukes, 250 of them are strategic, loaded on missiles, 150 of them tactical, carried as bombs.

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So you are correct that at one time the PLAAF can carry nuclear weapons.

But today, the nuclear capable Q-5s are long gone, and none of the new ones have been nuke cleared. The same goes with the H-6s and none of the new H-6s have been adapted. Neither are the JH-7s, Su-27s or the Su-30MKKs. So how come there is no follow up?

Maybe at one point, nukes have been trusted to another service besides the 2nd Artillery, but today, there is very little nuclear adaption of any other weapons system outside of the 2nd Artillery. The key is what I am asking you, how does the current CMC view the nuclear "trust" with the 2nd Artillery and the main PLA. Now, today.

Click to expand...

1) I read NTI, etc claim(estimate as they said), and that's it. I wouldn't use them as any purpose, or as evidence in any discussion.

2) It's hard to judge that if any airplanes in PLAAF are nuke cleared or not, I don't know and you don't know neither. The fact that Chinese first H-bomb was dropped by a Q-5 was disclosed only in 1990s.

3) Most nukes are controlled by 2nd Artillery today doesn't mean CMC doesn't trust other units, there is no logic connection here, as I said before. With the 094 SSBN entering service, more ICBMs will go to Navy, your logic is not right.

The nuke adapted H-6 and Q-5s were clearly retired. We have not seen any more nuke adapted planes, and believe me the PLAAF has been transparent enough. Even if the JH-7s are nuke cleared, they would have been mentioned. After all thats how we know of the nuke Q-5s and H-6s. For some reason we know well enough of the H-6 upgrades and yet we don't know about them being nuke cleared? We know of the J-10s lasing bombs and JH-7As carrying ARMs, but yet we don't know about them carrying nukes? I have not even heard a shred of rumor or report of any modern PLAAF plane that have been nuke adapted. Absolutely none, whatsover, PLA official report, Chinese forum report, US neocon report, any report.

094 going into the water can also mean having a small staff of 2nd Artillery to go with it.