China's Internet Boom, Games, Addiction & other news

Is there a precedent for a multinational company to challenge a sovereign state? If there isn't, time to make a chicken of Google.

RedMercury said:

Is there a precedent for a multinational company to challenge a sovereign state? If there isn't, time to make a chicken of Google.

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Yes, lots of multinational companies have challenged nations. Modern American and European history is filled with examples of American and European companies, government bureaus, high ranking government workers, politicians, and armies interfering against and dominating nations' domestic policies.

I'll give you an easy, recent example: Blackwater/Xe has been accused of illegal actions/war crimes by Iraqis, Afghanis, and Pakistanis, but this mercenary company/military contractor can't be touched by foreign courts or legal systems. It's backed by the US government.

Google recently worked with the US government to convince/force various nations to allow Google to violate other nations copyright/IP/trademark/whatever laws. This isn't new. The truth about copyright/etc. is that they can be violated, stretched, or abused in the US and other nations as long as you have good lawyers and political connections.

I think China should allow Baidu, Google, and more domestic companies to compete for China's Internet search engine market. China is really dumb to only allow Baidu and Google to compete. Let lots of Chinese get a chance at making various Internet search engines. China should focus on stopping propaganda from major troublemakers like the Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama makers a factual opinion, then let him speak, but if he starts lying, then expose his lies or shut him out of public areas. I don't think people have a right to lie unless they are in a military war or political war. China is hurting itself by censoring people who make real complaints about real corruption or real problems. China shouldn't allow Google to perpetuate foreign propaganda.

Some ´birds´ are twittering that State Security eventually got wind of how ´hand in glove´ Google and NSA were working together regarding the ´China portfolio´ and simply decided to pull the plug.

Most notably large scale efforts of datamining (virtually trying to ´grab off´ and deep analyze the interest content of the Chinese net!) and establishing a local infrastructure on Chinese soil enabling Google and her NSA partners to implement ´identity tracking´ of any targeted Chinese user were probably the real reason behind Googles suddenly worsening business fortunes in the PRC.

At least personally I'm not the least surprised how brazenly the hypocrites of Google are trying to defame China as a ´censorship state´... but especially Mr. Brin will have to watch out not to be spotted embarrassingly ´in bed´ with his friends of the US and Israeli ´intelligence community´!

By the way, inframan99, your argument that Google is doing this because they're losing business in China holds no water. In fact, according to web analytics, their share of search in China has risen as high as 48% last December, and currently hold under 40% right now. That was from a low like nearly 20% early this year.

Furthermore, Google has also signed up a lot of Chinese companies and carriers to for their Android operating system, including Chinese Mobile, China Unicom, China Telecom, Huawei, Lenovo, and ZTE, who even now, actually joined the Open Handset Alliance just today. The CES held just this month, how many Chinese manufacturers are showing smartphones and tablets running on Google's Android OS? [If you want to imply this is some nefarious plot, Android is running on Linux, which is also used by the Chinese government, and both Android and Linux are completely open---meaning all the code can be read for you to analyze and customize).

Let me point out to you the info on the security breech is now made public and detailed. McAffee has worked with Google on this. Certainly traced back to China right down to the servers, methods and targets have been detailed. All was clearly intended for corporate espionage. The hackers made worked through by exploiting a hole on Microsoft Internet Explorer 6. Microsoft has also acknowledged this issue.

Let me point out to you that Yahoo has also acknowledged attacks, and another attack victim has been Adobe as well, using modified PDF files. China's censorship making itself look more like an ass by censoring guess who, IMDB because of user generated content. IMDB? That's the database for movies and TV, and whoever is in the industry involved in making those. That's already going too far. Furthermore, a security company has filed a 2.2 billion dollar lawsuit against the makers of Green Dam Software for alleged plagarism of software code.

Whatever good will China was trying to create with the Olympics, pretty much evaporated here. This is a chilling effect for all multinationals.

Let me add something. Chinese bloggers are with Google on this issue. So whose side of China are you in? The Chinese people or the Chinese government? The freedom of the Chinese web has been a key factor in the check and balances against corrupt officials in government and business in China.

Like I said, its the freedom of the Chinese Internet that makes this freaking hobby of China defense watching even possible. You're going to draw the line whether you want to preserve that freedom.

So with one fell swoop you have convicted the Chinese government of all those incidents of hacking? So every electronic communication that comes from China must be due to the government? So because the servers were in China, the perpetrator was also? So if the perpetrator was in China, he or she was working for the government? So Chinese people are responsible for ill-will created by the propaganda of foreign media?

I never really liked google and I am more suspicious of it now. I've always suspected it was doing a lot of evil while making all those proclamations of piety. I would be hardly surprised if, some years in the future, I read a news article saying it had been working closely with some alphabet agency all this time.

This isn't about censorship, it is about google making political hay and building its image in the west. If it was so much against censorship then why did it agree originally? It's just "smart marketing" on their part. It has nothing to lose so it wants to score some points on the way out, maybe on the remote chance the Chinese government bows on the issue, it can be the champion of western corporatism. Their actions make me sick.

The android OS is irrelevant to google's financial bottom line. It is an open OS after all, google isn't selling it.

Chilling effect on multinationals? I think more chilling would be to go against the rule of law and say "hey, in China, if you're a big enough company, you can act outside the law. Sure this time it's censorship, maybe next time it's picking on another company, your company".

Chinese bloggers does not the "Chinese people" make. That is a huge generalization. And as to PLA watching, the core of it is on mainland forums, which are already self-censored, yet it is still a vibrant community.

Why only subject lines? If the attackers could get access to subject lines, why couldn't they access entire e-mails? Apparently because the hackers infiltrated automated systems set up to provide such information to law enforcement in the US and elsewhere. (Getting access to the contents of e-mail messages is harder under US law than getting access to addresses, subject lines, etc, which are considered to be on the "outside of the envelope" and subject to pen register searches).
According to a

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, "Right before Christmas, it was, 'Holy s—, this malware is accessing the internal intercept [systems].'" Later, Google cofounder Larry Page supervised a Christmas Eve meeting on the security breach.
Fun fact: Google's security team managed to penetrate one of the servers being used by the attackers, which was how the full extent of the attack—more than 30 companies—was revealed.


Breaches by design. Former Ars writer Julian Sanchez, now covering security at the Cato Institute,

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with these automated law enforcement tracking systems in place at most major ISPs and Web companies. "As an eminent group of security experts argued in 2008, the trend toward building surveillance capability into telecommunications architecture amounts to a breach-by-design, and a serious security risk. As the volume of requests from law enforcement at all levels grows, the compliance burdens on telcoms grow also—making it increasingly tempting to create automated portals to permit access to user information with minimal human intervention.
"The problem of volume is front and center in a leaked recording released last month, in which Sprint’s head of legal compliance revealed that their automated system had processed 8 million requests for GPS location data in the span of a year, noting that it would have been impossible to manually serve that level of law enforcement traffic. Less remarked on, though, was Taylor’s speculation that someone who downloaded a phony warrant form and submitted it to a random telecom would have a good chance of getting a response—and one assumes he’d know if anyone would."

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The Chief Design Officer of Baidu Reacts to Google's Withdrawal from China (01/13/2010) (

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Google announced that it will withdraw from China. This does not show that Google is a "human rights warrior" as promoted by their fans. It proved precisely that Google is a profiteer.
The tone of the top Google legal advisor disgusts me. He could have said that they are withdrawing for economic reasons, plain and simple. Instead, they have to make themselves look good by saying that Google was attacked by Chinese people, that Gmail accounts of Chinese dissidents were attacked, and so on in order to explain why they are withdrawing from China. This type of tone is an insult to the intelligence of the ordinary Chinese citizens. But it may just appeal to certain supercilious westerners who have never been to China, know nothing whatsoever about China but like to say criticize China all the same.


I will simply offer one hypothesis. If Google holds a 80% share of the search engine market in China, will the Google senior managers announce that they will withdraw from China because they "do no evil" in such a high profile manner?
The only feeling that I got out of the whole affair is disgust.


The above comments are written by a former loyal Google user, and it has nothing to do with Baidu. The so-called Google fans who know a bit about Google technology and think that Google is an ethical model shouldn't bother to comment. You don't know what search engines are and you don't know what are freedom and human rights.
By the way, comments are closed here. If you want to whine, go to twitter. You are not welcomed on my turf.


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The Withdrawal of Google from China is only Psychological Warfare (01/13/2010) (

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Early this morning, Google announced on its official blog that it is considering shutting down its Google business in China and website Google.cn.
With respect to Google's announcement, I basically think that it is a form of psychological warfare. It is unlikely that they will go through with this. If they go through with it, it will be their loss. Most Chinese Internet users will forget the entire affair within three months. A few Internet users may occasionally reminisce about it, but that would be just a few ripples in a pond.


The Google announcement is largely related to the clash of concepts and management philosophy. For the longest time, Google did not think that they are media. Instead, they think of themselves only as a search engine whose results are derived by technology and for which they bore no administrative responsibility. Thus, even if there are personal attacks against leaders in the United States, Google will only offer an explanation and nothing else.
When Google came to the China, they had no intent to adapt to the situation in the market there. They simply continued the same concepts. Therefore, when the media exposed them for purveying pornography and illegal content, Google could only respond hurriedly, including changing leaders. Even so, Google is still facing the pressure to take on more administrative responsibility.


Google also failed to understand the recent issue of writers' copyrights. In their view, they think that they are not scanning entire books for readers to read. Instead, they only scan parts of a book which act like quotations that help readers to enquire and understand the book. To a certain extent, this should help the writers in getting greater exposure and understanding. They could not understand why it drew so much blowback in mainland China.


For the Chinese people, we are more sophisticated in our thinking and we can appreciate what different segments of people think. But this is hard for Americans to deal with.


Will Google really withdraw from the China market? I personally think that this is merely psychological warfare. For the global Internet industry, a huge part of the market would be missing without China. The future development of the Internet is towards 3G with many services. It will be a huge blow to Google's global strategy if it did not have the China market. In the long term, it will have problems with its mobile phones, mobile operating systems and related services.


More importantly, will the Chinese government departments come under pressure if Google withdraws from the China market? Not a single government department will be held responsible or come under pressure if Google withdraws. The majority of Internet users will not experience any material impact. The only people who will feel the pain are the Google workers in China. The result will be that the Chinese companies will become stronger in China, in search engines and in the future 3G-based industry. If one day Google should think about re-entering China, they will find that they have become totally uncompetitive. It is also uncertain whether their action here may affect any future collaboration with Chinese companies on Google Android.
I think that China and the United States are strategic competitors, but also cooperative partners in many areas as well. It is the same with Google. They must realize that China and the United States are different, and they must find more channels for exchange and communication. They must also be forward-looking. Withdrawal is not a good choice for Google.
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70% Chinese Internet Users Surveyed Don't Think The Government Should Make Any Concessions To Google (01/14/2010) (

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The news that Google has threatened to withdraw from the China market has become a hot discussion topic among Chinese Internet users. Some people felt sorry that Google may leave; some people are concerned that the China market will no longer be competitive; others welcomed the departure of Google. The online survey conducted at the Huanqiu website showed that more than half of the respondents did not think that the departure of Google will affect their Internet usage. About 70% of the respondents said that the Chinese government should not accept the conditions offered by Google.


According to reports, there were two main reasons offered by Google for why they want to depart: First, they detected sophisticated technological attacks against their system infrastructure coming from China. Secondly, they are unwilling to continue to censorship of search results by Google.cn. Google stated its conditions by saying that they will discuss with the Chinese government over the next few weeks about how to have a search engine without censorship under the existing legal framework in China.


Since the search engine services provided by Google has direct relations with many Internet users, their potential withdraw drew the attention of Internet users. On the day of the announcement, Huanqiu ran an online survey with enthusiastic participation. As for 18:30pm, more than 10,000 netizens have voted. With respect to "Does the withdrawal of Google from China have any impact on your Internet usage?" 9767 persons (55.6%) said no, while the other 7801 persons (44.4%) said yes. With respect to "Which search engine do you use most frequently on the Internet?" 12901 persons (73.2%) chose Baidu, 4153 (23.6%) chose Google while less than 5% chose one of the five other search engines (such as Tencent's SoSo, etc).



This may be the reason why more than half of the Internet users say that they won't be affected by the departure of Google. With respect to the survey question "Do you think that the Chinese government should accept the conditions of Google?" 1449 persons (70.4%) said no while 610 persons (29.6%) said yes.


With respect to the Google statement, Internet users had different reactions. Some people were sorry that Google might leave, because Google has formidable technologies while carrying fewer advertisements. Its departure will cause inconvenience for some Internet users. The China market will also become less competitive, which would not be good for the development of the Chinese search engine industry. But many people also welcomed the departure of Google. These netizens said that Google is not a purely commercial company, because they have many ties and connections to the American government. Some people said, "They describe themselves as a company all the time, but they are serving as the advance party for the American government in the political gambit." "The withdrawal of Google from China is more like something that the American government is doing. Recently, so many things are happening between the Chinese and American government ... Iran, North Korea, selling arms to Taiwan, trade ... more importantly, even as Google issued the blog post, American Secretary of State Hilary Clinton is summoning the senior managers of the Internet companies and bringing out new laws and regulations." Other netizens said that Google is not just a search engine company in the United States, because they also provide data services to the American government (and the military in particular). Many of the Internet security experts and technicians at the National Security Agency come from Google and other big Internet companies, and the Google servers are now all located on American soil. This netizen said: "This means that all the search records of Chinese netizens can be monitored by Google as well as the government departments that are tied in with Google."
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(1) Spying has been happening between the US and China for a long time. I am NOT taking sides, just stating facts. The sun is bright. I don't care if you like brightness or not, but the sun is bright. 1+1=2. The US spies on China. China spies on the US.

(2) The US and Europe have their own problems with hackers, spammers, and other people who use the Internet for controversial purposes. In fact, the US and Europe have major hackers, spammers, etc. Two wrongs don't make a right, but if you are going to make an authentic moral stand, you go after ALL wrongdoers. Cherry picking morals is hypocrisy.

(3) Can someone provide me proof that Google has more support in China than China's government on this topic (as implied by Crobato)? I am finding a hard time finding this.

(4) IMDB or Hollywood's database.

Did you know Hollywood has lots of politically active people (Steven Spielberg: a Jew who loves Israel and hates China, when Palestine has been in far, far, far, far worse condition than Tibet)?

Did you know Hollywood has worked with the CIA and military in the past ()

Did you know Hollywood promotes lots of anti-Asian values in its movies while screaming anti-Semitism, racism, or homophobia on other matters (the list is endless)? Did you know Hollywood promotes lots of anti-China values while overlooking major moral flaws in Hollywood itself, in America, in Europe, and especially in Europe?

Did you know Hollywood steals lots of people's ideas while accusing others of piracy (writers' strike claiming Hollywood doesn't give its many, many writers enough credit while millions of dollars worth of compensation goes to a few people; set designers/engineers getting paid chump change compared to directors/producers/actors/actresses/a few privileged writers)?

Did you know the entertainment industry gets better rights for copyrights/trademarks/IP than most scientists and engineers?

Did you know Hollywood steals lots of ideas from foreigners and domestic book authors?

Did you know most entertainers are fake (computer graphics to improve an entertainers looks, top cosmeticians, fashion stylists, nonstop lying press relations managers, fitness trainers, plastic surgeons, professional photographers, computers to enhance singing voice, etc.)?

Did you know Hollywood corporations monopolize the price of their products at theaters and other media outlets? Notice how movie tickets for ALL movies are very similar throughout America, throughout the day, and for all movies. Independent theaters have tried to have independently, fluctuating prices for their tickets depending on the supply and demand of the movie throughout the day and throughout the movie's exposure at the theater. These small theaters are bullied by Hollywood's massive corporations to obey Hollywood's price rules. Very few companies have monopolistic rights like Hollywood corporations.

Did you know Hollywood and the rest of the entertainment industry is a major source of prostitution (including child prostitution) and drugs? Roman Polanski ring a bell?

Hollywood is not as innocent or as moral as Hollywood portrays itself to be.

I think China should NOT censor IMDB, but China should expose IMDB's problems. Buyers/viewers beware: Here is the real dirt on Hollywood hidden by Hollywood . . .

Imagine if China's entertainment industry was as corrupt and dishonest as Hollywood. Imagine what Google and American media corporations would do to expose corruption and dishonesty in China's entertainment industry.

(5) Google is given special rights by the Chinese government to be the second search engine for China. The first is Baidu. Even with special rights, Google is having problems dominating China's search engines market. See how Google has worked with the US government to dominate markets in the US and many other nations. One nation is a clear exception, and that is China.

Suddenly Google makes a grand moral argument to explain why it should be granted expanded powers in China. Google launches this attack at the same time the Obama Administration wants deals/concessions from China, including Internet deals. Meanwhile, Google ignores much more important moral debates/battles occurring all over the Middle East, Central Asia, South Asia, and Latin America. I see a monopolistic company hiding behind morals to increase its wealth and influence.

Google isn't vociferously protesting about Google working with the US government to spy on US citizens and US visitors. Google works with the US government and major American media corporations in burying lots of information about the full truth about the Middle East. Google works with the US government and major American corporations to highlight US government and US corporate propaganda. However, Google says it must have expanded powers in China to stand up for justice! I find Google's claims very hard to believe.

I have nothing about freedom of expression and capitalism, in fact, I like it. I think every Chinese has the right to freely express themselves as long as they don't unfairly hurt someone (ie, appropriate self-defense is OK and releasing data that is approved by all owners of the data) or as long as they try their best to be factual. I think China should allow more domestic programmers to start their own search engines.

What I don't like is the Chinese government trying to brainwash every Chinese citizen. What I don't like is a two-faced corporation (Google) lying to people to increase its wealth and power. What I don't like a two-faced foreign government (the Obama Administration) lying to foreigners to increase its wealth and power. I don't like people saying they are doing something for some great justice, when the full truth is they are doing something for justice, money, and power.

Tell the truth: "I, Google, want more money and power in China. At the same time I want less Internet censorship in China, and I want to be the only entity along with the US government that may spy on other people."

It's bad enough Chinese people have to deal with an oppressive government. Now Chinese people have to deal with a two-faced Google backed by a two-faced foreign government. I hope only the former occurs, and the Chinese people eventually create a government for the people by the people.

(6) Google, US media corporations, and the US government (the 3 heade liar) want to fully reveal China's human rights violations during the '89 Tiananmen Massacre and post-WWII Chinese conquest of Tibet and Western China. The same 3 headed liar is working very hard to censor human rights violations involving the US military and US corporations at military prisons and at various Middle Eastern nations (and MANY other nations). I want to see the full truth of the evils of the Chinese government, the US government, Chinese organizations, US organizations, and the same in all nations.


My morality goes beyond national borders. I want justice for every innocent person and appropriate punishments for every guilty person. I am more happy than ever to be using Clusty, Baidu, and Bing as my search engines. Good bye Google!

70% Chinese Internet Users Surveyed Don't Think The Government Should Make Any Concessions To Google (01/14/2010) (Huanqiu)
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LMAO that goes hand in hand with baidu's 70% market share...

crobato said:

By the way, inframan99, your argument that Google is doing this because they're losing business in China holds no water. In fact, according to web analytics, their share of search in China has risen as high as 48% last December, and currently hold under 40% right now. That was from a low like nearly 20% early this year.

Furthermore, Google has also signed up a lot of Chinese companies and carriers to for their Android operating system, including Chinese Mobile, China Unicom, China Telecom, Huawei, Lenovo, and ZTE, who even now, actually joined the Open Handset Alliance just today. The CES held just this month, how many Chinese manufacturers are showing smartphones and tablets running on Google's Android OS? [If you want to imply this is some nefarious plot, Android is running on Linux, which is also used by the Chinese government, and both Android and Linux are completely open---meaning all the code can be read for you to analyze and customize).

Let me point out to you the info on the security breech is now made public and detailed. McAffee has worked with Google on this. Certainly traced back to China right down to the servers, methods and targets have been detailed. All was clearly intended for corporate espionage. The hackers made worked through by exploiting a hole on Microsoft Internet Explorer 6. Microsoft has also acknowledged this issue.

Let me point out to you that Yahoo has also acknowledged attacks, and another attack victim has been Adobe as well, using modified PDF files. China's censorship making itself look more like an ass by censoring guess who, IMDB because of user generated content. IMDB? That's the database for movies and TV, and whoever is in the industry involved in making those. That's already going too far. Furthermore, a security company has filed a 2.2 billion dollar lawsuit against the makers of Green Dam Software for alleged plagarism of software code.

Whatever good will China was trying to create with the Olympics, pretty much evaporated here. This is a chilling effect for all multinationals.

Let me add something. Chinese bloggers are with Google on this issue. So whose side of China are you in? The Chinese people or the Chinese government? The freedom of the Chinese web has been a key factor in the check and balances against corrupt officials in government and business in China.

Like I said, its the freedom of the Chinese Internet that makes this freaking hobby of China defense watching even possible. You're going to draw the line whether you want to preserve that freedom.

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So you're saying it is alright for Google to openly commit an illegal act in China, simply because...theyre Google??

If you do something that is against the law in any country, regardless of whether you agree with the laws of that country or not, it makes you a criminal. Period.

What Google is doing now in China is breaking the law. That's it. I dont want to bring too much history into this, BUT, the days when foreigners could walk into China, openly disregard the laws, do whatever they want are over. This is not the 1800s.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I am no fan of China's censorship, I wish it werent there. On principle, I cheer Google standing up for freedom of information, wherever that maybe. But also on principle, I vehemently disagree with Google disobeying Chinese law in China.

pla101prc said:

70% Chinese Internet Users Surveyed Don't Think The Government Should Make Any Concessions To Google (01/14/2010) (Huanqiu)
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LMAO that goes hand in hand with baidu's 70% market share...

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I'm not surprised at the percentage at all. The Chinese public did have some bad experiences with some foreign media quite recently.