China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?

jimmyjames30x30 · Mar 6, 2021

nlalyst said:
To be fair, China tried to conquer Japan in the 13th century and failed. Projecting power overseas has always been difficult.

China is a civilization that always remember their most heroic historical figure. Especially the tragic heros, because only tragic heroes can show humanity what it means to be have a heroic heart. A heroic heart is a man who bravely faces the consequences of his defeat and death.

Xiangyu (项羽）is a highest form of hero not because how he defeated the Army of Qin 10 times more numerous to his army. He is a hero because he decides to not run away to fight another day, but to face the full consequences of his defeat and let death take him. He won against the Qin Army because "破釜沉舟，向死而生". Yet, he won his own immortal place in our collective memory because "慷慨赴死，而得以永生与天地之间". This is the true meaning of "置之于死地而后生" from the Art of War.

But now, with this sentence, you are again acting like what Japanese people typically act: finding excuses to weasel your way out of blame. Let me tell you again: conquering China is NOT difficult. If a few hundred thousand Manchus can conquer Ming dynasty and the Japanese can't conquer a de-fecto non-existent ROC, there must be a whole bunch of things that the Japanese did terribly wrong. It could only mean that the Japanese were simply not worthy. Again, look for problem in Japan itself, quit wasting your time on excuses. Besides, nobody is blaming you!

The Japanese history has not shortage of individualistic and brave Samurais that conquered the fear of death itself. Why couldn't the Japanese look more at them, and spend less energy on these rationalist mind tricks and logic games that does NOTHING but collect more excuses to help them slippery japs to weasel their way out of retribution and reproach?

I am starting to wonder if the Meiji Restoration is actually a disaster to Japanese culture. It basically gave lowly profit-seeking/risk-avoiding mercantile mindset too much power and prestige, and suppressed the noble and brave Samurai mindset. Therefore this society has since then been full of shrewd opportunists, moral-less lawyers, and little to no great men.

nlalyst · Mar 6, 2021

jimmyjames30x30 said:
Japanese is what Northeastern Chinese people calls: "扣扣索索，贼眉鼠眼".
In WW2, the Japanese called their country An Empire（帝国）. Yet, officially, they refuse to even admit that Manchuria is part of Japan. They call it Manchukuo, making it a de jure ally of (and thus de jure equal in status to) Japan, and even found Puyi to be their puppet. This is a smear, a sh*t stain on the two great Hanzi (Kanji) that made up the term "帝国"(Empire)! This what a thief does! Utterly gutless and full of cowardice. The whole world knows what Japan is doing, yet the Japanese NEVER admitted it.

That reminded me of the Japanese shadow conquest of the Ryukyu kingdom in 1609. The Okinawans had to deceive the Ming and later the Qing into believing that Ryukyu was still their vassal and took advantage of the lucrative tribute system trade, while in reality being a vassal of the Japanese domain of Satsuma.

jimmyjames30x30 · Mar 6, 2021

nlalyst said:
That reminded me of the Japanese shadow conquest of the Ryukyu kingdom in 1609. The Okinawans had to deceive the Ming and later the Qing into believing that Ryukyu was still their vassal and took advantage of the lucrative tribute system trade, while in reality being a vassal of the Japanese domain of Satsuma.

[Face palm] I actually wanted to stay out of this one, I thought you might bring this up. But I would say that this is understandable, because at least the Domain of Satsuma knows that they are just a small and tiny domain compare to the huge Qing, and thus wanted to avoid unnecessary trouble. Besides, the whole tribute system, is actually a trade block/treaty-system in today's modern equivalence. The true nature of the Tribute System is an openly known secret in East Asia. Satsuma Domain does this not because they are some kind of natural invader (like how traditional Chinese and Korean propaganda portraits nomads, as well as the Japanese), they did this because they want to gain an upper hand in regional trade.

These are actually trade competitions. They are VERY different from Manchuria, Taiwan, or even Korea. Manchuria and Taiwan is a matter of sovereignty, Korea is a matter of National Security. Ryukyu is trade. As long as Ryukyu serves its purpose of an important trade node for China, the Chinese imperial court is not going to care as much about it as other things.

In fact, I am suspecting that in future we could unearth more historical records/evidences that the Ming and Qing court know what happened to The Ryukyu Kingdom, but did nothing to help because they are content with the fact that the Domain of Satsuma have the wisdom to know not to make Ming/Qing lose face by keeping things secret. My guess is that even if Ryukyu did become a vessel of Satsuma Domain, it still perform the exact same function as it did before to the Ming and Qing dynasty. In fact, since Ryukyu is an important trade node for the trade between Ming/Qing and Japan, the Ming/Qing court would have wanted Ryukyu to have a better relationship to the Japanese. Current historical record all show that Ming/Qing court actually don't really care all that much about Ryukyu.

solarz · Mar 6, 2021

nlalyst said:
Once again you display a complete failure of reading comprehension. The comparison was between the Han Dynasty and the Roman Empire.

What I actually wrote:

Overall means the entirety of those two countries histories. Since we are comparing them as countries, the dates of first unification are a good candidate for the start of the period. For China 221 BCE is the commonly accepted year. For Japan it's a less clear cut, but around 250 AD during Yamato period seems to be the most commonly accepted date.

I know perfectly well what you are trying to pull. You are trying to use a false equivalence to argue a logically absurd position.

The legacy of the Han dynasty to modern China is purely cultural. Current PRC territorial claims comes from the Qing dynasty, and is in fact less extensive than Qing.

In contrast, the West is still benefitting directly from their blood soaked colonial past. The British are still trying to act like they have a role to play in HK, despite having been kicked out 24 years ago.

Unlike you, none of us equivocates Roman conquests with "Western aggressiveness".

Japan has been an insular country for most of its history, yet two out of its three major attempts to establish relations with its neighbors were acts of war. That's like claiming Anders Breivik is not a violent man because his mass shooting rampage only lasted a couple of hours compared to his 42 years of life.

How shameless does one need to be to make such a claim?

supersnoop · Mar 6, 2021

Interesting that my 5 month old post suddenly stirred up such lively discussion.

jimmyjames30x30 said:
Japanese is what Northeastern Chinese people calls: "扣扣索索，贼眉鼠眼".
In WW2, the Japanese called their country An Empire（帝国）. Yet, officially, they refuse to even admit that Manchuria is part of Japan. They call it Manchukuo, making it a de jure ally of (and thus de jure equal in status to) Japan, and even found Puyi to be their puppet. This is a smear, a sh*t stain on the two great Hanzi (Kanji) that made up the term "帝国"(Empire)! This what a thief does! Utterly gutless and full of cowardice. The whole world knows what Japan is doing, yet the Japanese NEVER admitted it.

If you are a King, why don't you have the guts to declare so? When Christ was hung on the Cross, when even his own disciples has betrayed and denied him, he STILL answered in full confidence and claimed that he is indeed truly the King of Jews, when asked. This is a TRUE KING! Japs was NEVER even remotely close!

To lower a notch, if you snatched a bunch girls to be your concubine, why don't you have the guts to declare them as yours, fair and square? What don't you have the guts to act like a real man and say: "I love these girls, they are my wives, I shall love them everyday, we shall make many children. And no one will take them away from me as long as I live!" Now that's is a great man with a great charisma that Chinese people respect and admire.

What the Japanese did, is like a man kidnapping a bunch of girls to be his sex slaves, yet he refuse to admit what he is doing. Instead, he claims that they have became sworn brother-and-sisters, and thus living together. We call this kind of man as "衣冠禽兽"、"龌龊至极"、”无耻小人“. How could Chinese people ever find themselves to have an ounce of love for such a petty thing?

Any educated Japanese should know that any regime based on such dirty thuggery can not stand, not because of moral reason. But because thuggery actually exposes one's weakness and lack of confidence. Confidence is really the most important thing. How can your "EMPIRE" stand the test of time, if you don't have the guts to claim that a large bulk of this empire as de jure part of the Empire, in all legitimacy?

How do you expect the people of conquered Manchuria and China Proper to support and be loyal to the Japanese Empire, when you Japanese are officially telling them that they are de jure NOT a part of Japan and actually is still their own country? Chinese people are simple and direct: "if this land is our own country, then get the hell out of here and let us run it ourselves! If this land is now part of Japan, than who are we now? Japanese?", "If you make us Japanese with your swords and tanks, why is our Sovereign Hirohito and our representatives nowhere to be seen?". "If you just want to kill us, then do it fast and out in the open. Don't fret like a wuss, and stab a person in the secrecy of dark nights." The Germans is at brutally honest and confident enough to declare and claim their intensions to exterminate Jews and Slavs. The Japs, on the other hand, keep claiming that they are here to befriend and unite with the Chinese and other East Asians. Such disgusting cowardice of the Japs!

"A house divided can not stand", an Empire with confused and unclear identity, boundaries and systems, also can NOT stand.

We Asian and Orientals speak of the Great ONENESS as a part of our culture, be it the Hindu, or Daoist, or Buddhist, or even Shinto. The Japanese has always been doomed to NEVER attain greatness, because they NEVER had an ounce of true confidence risen out the Enlightened Spirit at ONE with Itself. They have always been apologetic. Always striving to prove themselves worthy or legitimate in the eyes of others. It seems that the Japanese NEVER really cared about Greatness. What they did care about, is once it's all over, they would have enough excuses to talk themselves out of retribution and reproach.

Such gutless petty fools!

Japanese did try to extinguish Korean culture and Chinese culture in Taiwan. I can’t remember where I read it, but I remember reading something along the lines of the current ultranationalistic/ethnic supremacist ideas of South Koreans is pretty much a reactionary response with “Korean” replacing “Japanese”, but keeping the same “racially homogeneous” ideology.

Obviously this doesn’t really apply to Taiwan.

jimmyjames30x30 · Mar 7, 2021

supersnoop said:
Interesting that my 5 month old post suddenly stirred up such lively discussion.

Japanese did try to extinguish Korean culture and Chinese culture in Taiwan. I can’t remember where I read it, but I remember reading something along the lines of the current ultranationalistic/ethnic supremacist ideas of South Koreans is pretty much a reactionary response with “Korean” replacing “Japanese”, but keeping the same “racially homogeneous” ideology.

Obviously this doesn’t really apply to Taiwan.

Sure, but that is an earlier time in Japan's empire building process. The thing happened in this period is actually quite interesting. In my opinion, in today's world, Chinese social scientist and historians would need to pay special attention to this era. Not just because of Taiwan, but because the original state of things in Taiwan is a perfect example of what Southern Chinese Culture is like.

If you look at the linguistic maps of China, you will realize that the sub-languages are pretty much all in the Southern China region. There are some more radical public intellectuals/民科 in China would argue that Han Chinese culture also internally divided into two state of beings:

1. The Northern Continental Civilization (Lang Power), encompassing mostly the mandarin (官话区）group in the north
2. The Southern Maritime Civilization (Sea Power), encompassing most of the southern multi-dialect areas in the south

The Continental Northerner has a more centralized, singular identity, they converge to a more culturally homogeneous state of being; they are more military-political, and less mercantile. They stick closer to the greater unified Chinese identity and feel less kinship to their local identity. They are more open towards people with different accents (from other provinces or cities).

The Maritime Southerner are more of a culturally diverse cluster of many different groups. They tend to diverge into many many different identities that are heterogenous. They are more family, clan and community oriented and less loyal to the greater Chinese identity. They are less open to people from other cities and provinces who don't understand their dialects.

In this regard, Taiwan was a good reflection of what Rural Fujian was like in the Ming/Qing dynasty. Rural Fujian is, til this day, a good reflection of what the typical Maritime multicultural Southerner is like. Therefore, for the Japanese experience. They are NOT just trying to incorporate The Chinese cultural Taiwan into the Japanese Empire, but they are also trying to incorporate a multicultural maritime clan-based, dialect-divided heterogenous cluster of a society into a unified singular (Continental) Japanese identity.

I would consider this as a excerpt of the grander history of modernization of East Asia. Northern Chinese people from the mainland would certainly understand the significance of this. And I would only suggest that Chinese people don't just take this part of history as a bashing stick to accuse Japan, but more as a important part of history which reveals an important and ongoing conflict between the two.

We are people of the new era. We need to look at history only as history now. Just like how we shall no more look at our ancestors who suffered as a victim of the Mongol Horde as a reason to hate on today's Mongolians either in China or in Mongolia.

jimmyjames30x30 · Mar 7, 2021

supersnoop said:
Interesting that my 5 month old post suddenly stirred up such lively discussion.

Japanese did try to extinguish Korean culture and Chinese culture in Taiwan. I can’t remember where I read it, but I remember reading something along the lines of the current ultranationalistic/ethnic supremacist ideas of South Koreans is pretty much a reactionary response with “Korean” replacing “Japanese”, but keeping the same “racially homogeneous” ideology.

Obviously this doesn’t really apply to Taiwan.

I love watching young vtuber on Bilibili talking about games like Azure Lane. I remember an old news couple of years ago, when the direct/creator (who is Japanese) of Kantai Collection criticizing Azure Lane as a work lacking cultural depth, because it does not have the underlining pathos of the Kantai Collection.

I was deeply moved by this.

The girls in Kantai Collection encompassed the dream of greatness of the Japanese Imperial Navy, all shattered by defeat. The girls are in reality all doom to be sunk into the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. Such is the dreams of Japan, to rise above the world for greatness, only to end up like the burned up Icarus.

In4ser · Mar 8, 2021

jimmyjames30x30 said:
China is a civilization that always remember their most heroic historical figure. Especially the tragic heros, because only tragic heroes can show humanity what it means to be have a heroic heart. A heroic heart is a man who bravely faces the consequences of his defeat and death.

Xiangyu (项羽）is a highest form of hero not because how he defeated the Army of Qin 10 times more numerous to his army. He is a hero because he decides to not run away to fight another day, but to face the full consequences of his defeat and let death take him. He won against the Qin Army because "破釜沉舟，向死而生". Yet, he won his own immortal place in our collective memory because "慷慨赴死，而得以永生与天地之间". This is the true meaning of "置之于死地而后生" from the Art of War.

But now, with this sentence, you are again acting like what Japanese people typically act: finding excuses to weasel your way out of blame. Let me tell you again: conquering China is NOT difficult. If a few hundred thousand Manchus can conquer Ming dynasty and the Japanese can't conquer a de-fecto non-existent ROC, there must be a whole bunch of things that the Japanese did terribly wrong. It could only mean that the Japanese were simply not worthy. Again, look for problem in Japan itself, quit wasting your time on excuses. Besides, nobody is blaming you!

The Japanese history has not shortage of individualistic and brave Samurais that conquered the fear of death itself. Why couldn't the Japanese look more at them, and spend less energy on these rationalist mind tricks and logic games that does NOTHING but collect more excuses to help them slippery japs to weasel their way out of retribution and reproach?

I am starting to wonder if the Meiji Restoration is actually a disaster to Japanese culture. It basically gave lowly profit-seeking/risk-avoiding mercantile mindset too much power and prestige, and suppressed the noble and brave Samurai mindset. Therefore this society has since then been full of shrewd opportunists, moral-less lawyers, and little to no great men.

Honestly, I think it had less to do with the Meiji Revolution and more to do with US occupation as Japan was still quite militaristic during WW2. Germany is the same way with probably one of the weaker militaries in Europe.

Unconditional surrender meant that the USA could re-write the laws and establish new social norms within Japan. Not only did the US forced Japan to renounce war and banned them from having a military but it also made Japan rid of its Kazoku system. Without armed forces or even traditional titles of nobility or rank to maintain the old hierarchical structure, the Yamato-damashii was effectively castrated and so the Japanese forced to channel their energy into industry and trade instead.

supersnoop · Mar 8, 2021

jimmyjames30x30 said:
Sure, but that is an earlier time in Japan's empire building process. The thing happened in this period is actually quite interesting. In my opinion, in today's world, Chinese social scientist and historians would need to pay special attention to this era. Not just because of Taiwan, but because the original state of things in Taiwan is a perfect example of what Southern Chinese Culture is like.

If you look at the linguistic maps of China, you will realize that the sub-languages are pretty much all in the Southern China region. There are some more radical public intellectuals/民科 in China would argue that Han Chinese culture also internally divided into two state of beings:

1. The Northern Continental Civilization (Lang Power), encompassing mostly the mandarin (官话区）group in the north
2. The Southern Maritime Civilization (Sea Power), encompassing most of the southern multi-dialect areas in the south

The Continental Northerner has a more centralized, singular identity, they converge to a more culturally homogeneous state of being; they are more military-political, and less mercantile. They stick closer to the greater unified Chinese identity and feel less kinship to their local identity. They are more open towards people with different accents (from other provinces or cities).

The Maritime Southerner are more of a culturally diverse cluster of many different groups. They tend to diverge into many many different identities that are heterogenous. They are more family, clan and community oriented and less loyal to the greater Chinese identity. They are less open to people from other cities and provinces who don't understand their dialects.

In this regard, Taiwan was a good reflection of what Rural Fujian was like in the Ming/Qing dynasty. Rural Fujian is, til this day, a good reflection of what the typical Maritime multicultural Southerner is like. Therefore, for the Japanese experience. They are NOT just trying to incorporate The Chinese cultural Taiwan into the Japanese Empire, but they are also trying to incorporate a multicultural maritime clan-based, dialect-divided heterogenous cluster of a society into a unified singular (Continental) Japanese identity.

I would consider this as a excerpt of the grander history of modernization of East Asia. Northern Chinese people from the mainland would certainly understand the significance of this. And I would only suggest that Chinese people don't just take this part of history as a bashing stick to accuse Japan, but more as a important part of history which reveals an important and ongoing conflict between the two.

We are people of the new era. We need to look at history only as history now. Just like how we shall no more look at our ancestors who suffered as a victim of the Mongol Horde as a reason to hate on today's Mongolians either in China or in Mongolia.

While I agree with most of what you said, there are some things that I think don't fit nicely.

1. I agree that Southerners can be less open to those not part of their clan/dialect group/etc. However, at the same time they do buy into the "greater Chinese identity". Much of the foundation of modern China relied a lot of the overseas Chinese communities which were in a large part made up of Southerners. How would you reconcile this?

2. With regards to the Japanese occupation period of Taiwan (and Korea), are you basically saying Japan basically saw their experience as failures and thus gave up with this method later in Manchuria?

I don't think "Han Chinese" has a good analogy in western civilization. It cannot really be classified as an ethnic group, at least not very neatly using classic western definitions. This is why Chinese/Han Chinese are always being accused of "cultural genocide". Really it is the original "melting pot".

Diverging a bit here... it is interesting you talk about looking to the future. Many people from all over the world are settling in China now. Many people who have Chinese ancestry are returning to China to find their roots (including those who do not might not look "typically Chinese"). I hope that people are able to all find the common bond that they are looking for, the country will be stronger for it.

nlalyst · Mar 9, 2021

supersnoop said:
I don't think "Han Chinese" has a good analogy in western civilization. It cannot really be classified as an ethnic group, at least not very neatly using classic western definitions.

Why not? If we trace the idea "Han Chinese" from its original form of Huaxia, then until the Qing dynasty, the analogy with Western Civilization was quite fitting I think. With the Qing conquest of China, and subsequently the Mongol, Tibetan and Muslim people, the idea began to evolve into Zhong Hua Minzu (Central Glorious Race-tribe). But this is nothing unusual in itself. The idea of who is western changed profoundly over time as well.

The confusing part is that the minorities in China today mostly comply with the western idea of ethnic group, while the Han don't. The 5 race classification from Qing/ROC was in a way more consistent. Wasn't it the case that in the 1982 census, over 500 million people wanted to change or claim different ethnic groups? The initial survey done in 1950 found over 400 different ethnic groups, according to Soviet methodology.

China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?

jimmyjames30x30

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nlalyst

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solarz

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supersnoop

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jimmyjames30x30

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In4ser

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