China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?

solarz · Mar 3, 2021

nlalyst said:
Sure, but it should be pointed out that many nationalist ideas propagated by the republican revolutionaries were actually imported from Japan, including the minzu concept.

The "split up" as in from the 5 ethnic groups in Qing and early republican China (5 races under one union) to 56 in the PRC. The Hui was historically used to refer to Muslim Turkic people in Western China. You know this.

The definition of who is Han changed from early republican China to the PRC and a group that identified themselves as Han got excluded in the PRC. But for the life of me, I cannot recall which one right now. The distinction was supposed to be based on the Stalinist definition of nationality or ethnic group, but it was rather liberally applied.According to this definition, a nationality was supposed to have the four following characteristics in common: language, territory, economic life, and mindset or culture. By the 1950s, most Manchus would have hardly qualified as a separate ethnic group according to the above. Very few were still able to speak or read the Manchu language, nor where they geographically concentrated in any one area.

That was in no small degree due to the rampant ethnic discrimination against banner people in the Republic of China. A large number of Bannermen adopted Han style surnames in the early republican period to escape discrimination. They even stopped observing their Manchu customs and stopped wearing their traditional dresses. Because a large number of Manchu men fell into destitute poverty and were unable to attract marriageable partners many Manchu women ended up marrying Han men. The Nationalist actually went much further than the early republicans: they denied that Manchus constituted a separate ethnic group and asserted that China was ethnically homogeneous. Sun Yat-Sen's Nationalism was only to be achieved by the creation of a new Chinese ethnic group (Zhonghua minzu). Modeled on American ethnicity, this Chinese ethnicity was to take the Han people (Hanzu) as the core and have the other four peoples (Manchus, Mongols, Muslims and Tibetans) all assimilate to them. For example this is why Lao She did not acknowledge his Manchu ancestry during that time. In the census taken in 1953, just 2.5 million people identified as Manchu, which is half the estimated banner people in late Qing.

You are hilariously off base.

The "5 ethnic groups" under Qing referred to the five most politically important ethnic groups under Qing rule: Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, and Tibetan. It never meant there were only five ethnic groups.

The Hui, in particular, was a general term for Muslims. It encompassed ethnic groups from Yunnan to Xinjiang. Under the PRC, Chinese Muslims were separated into the current nationalities. The modern Hui is basically composed of Han Chinese who are also Muslims.

Now its true that things were screwed up under the ROC, but you need to keep in mind that the ROC never controlled the entirety of China. Their rule over many of the minorities were only theoretical. The PRC was the first stable political entity after the fall of Qing to control the entirety of China, minus outer Mongolia and Taiwan if you want to quibble.

So what that means is the ROC classifications are worthless because they hardly had any dealing with those ethnic groups they blithely classified. It was only the PRC that went to do the whole administrative work to arrive at the current 56 nationalities classification.

PiSigma · Mar 3, 2021

nlalyst said:
I wrote that in contrast to Nationalist China. As I explained above, the Nationalists asserted that China had but one ethnic group, which was essentially the Han. No matter that the reality painted a different picture. That was just a temporary inconvenience. Take a look at what Chiang Kai-Shek wrote in his China's Destiny.

Then my English translation must be wrong? The "muslim" was in reference to the 5 races under one union from the early republic, which in turn was largely based on the Qing division of their multi-ethnic empire into five people.

As I understand it, the Manchu were really all the bannermen (of the 24 banners) in Qing era, an occupational caste and not an ethnicity in modern usage. In addition to the 8 "Manchu banners", they also included the 16 made up of Mongol and Hanjun banners. In the strict sense, the "true Manchus" would've been only the Old Manchu banners that Hong Taiji named Manju, and from whom all the emperors descended.

Like I said before, Manchu is a made-up ethnic group. Even before the Qing takeover of Ming territory south of the great Wall, the manchu was already a mixed bag.

The original 8 banners (I'm in the yellow banner of heseri clan) incorporated pretty much everyone in Manchuria at the time regardless if they were jurchen, mongol or han (Ming settlers). The later 8 mongol banners and 8 han banners were created because large numbers of people joined the party late. The number of han in liaodong is higher than any jurchen, but most are consider Manchu.

I know people that are yellow banner that never had a Manchu name/clan, because their family joined the manchus very early on.

nlalyst · Mar 4, 2021

solarz said:
You are hilariously off base.

The "5 ethnic groups" under Qing referred to the five most politically important ethnic groups under Qing rule: Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, and Tibetan. It never meant there were only five ethnic groups.

Off base of what? That's exactly what I wrote in my first post. Let's not run in circles.

The early republicans enshrined the idea of five races under one union as one of their foundational principles and incorporated it into their five-colored flag. On the other hand, the Nationalist under Chiang Kai-Shek thought that five is four too many and had they won the civil war it's unlikely they would've suddenly dropped the idea.

W20 · Mar 4, 2021

Very interesting, thank you

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IMO five "indentities"

nlalyst · Mar 4, 2021

solarz said:
The "5 ethnic groups" under Qing referred to the five most politically important ethnic groups under Qing rule: Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, and Tibetan. It never meant there were only five ethnic groups.

The Hui, in particular, was a general term for Muslims. It encompassed ethnic groups from Yunnan to Xinjiang. Under the PRC, Chinese Muslims were separated into the current nationalities. The modern Hui is basically composed of Han Chinese who are also Muslims.

Under Qing, the five people division was very rough, and largely of administrative nature. The Manchus were not an ethnic group, but an occupational caste. They were administered separately under the 8 banner system. The "Mongols" group lumped together a bunch of different tribes into a single container for ease of administration. The Chinese texts referred to them as the "the multiple frontier subject Mongols". Like the Tibetans and Hui, they were administered by the Court of Colonial Affairs, which was responsible for areas outside China proper. Finally, the Han were administered by the civil bureaucracy.

solarz · Mar 4, 2021

nlalyst said:
Off base of what? That's exactly what I wrote in my first post. Let's not run in circles.

The early republicans enshrined the idea of five races under one union as one of their foundational principles and incorporated it into their five-colored flag. On the other hand, the Nationalist under Chiang Kai-Shek thought that five is four too many and had they won the civil war it's unlikely they would've suddenly dropped the idea.

No, you wrote that the PRC artifically created the 56 nationalities out of what you claim were originally only "five races"

nlalyst said:
Under Qing, the five people division was very rough, and largely of administrative nature. The Manchus were not an ethnic group, but an occupational caste. They were administered separately under the 8 banner system. The "Mongols" group lumped together a bunch of different tribes into a single container for ease of administration. The Chinese texts referred to them as the "the multiple frontier subject Mongols". Like the Tibetans and Hui, they were administered by the Court of Colonial Affairs, which was responsible for areas outside China proper. Finally, the Han were administered by the civil bureaucracy.

What exactly is an "occupational caste"? What "occupation" did the Manchu have that other groups didn't?

Obviously the Mongols had different tribes. Tribes are a subdivision of nationality. You seem to be in the habit of misusing concepts and terms.

Finally, what the hell is the "Court of Colonial Affairs"? Sounds like a made up name. How about you give us the Chinese term instead?

nlalyst · Mar 4, 2021

solarz said:
No, you wrote that the PRC artifically created the 56 nationalities out of what you claim were originally only "five races"

What I wrote is that out of the five officially recognized people in the Qing Empire, the PRC subdivided the Hui(Muslim) people into ten separate groups and the Manchu people into six separate people. In total, the number of officialy recognized people grew from 5 in Qing to 56 in PRC.

solarz said:
What exactly is an "occupational caste"? What "occupation" did the Manchu have that other groups didn't?

No, it didn't work like that.

The Manchus (bannermen) were a hereditary military caste, from which non-banner civilians were excluded. Their primary duty was to fight. When they were not soldiering, they were only permitted to serve as officials in the Qing government or to farm. They were strictly barred from engaging in trade and other occupations. They were residentially segregated from the Han and lived in garrisons and "Manchu citiies". They were even restricted to how far they are allowed to venture from their garrison. They were also socially segregated from the Han: they were forbidden to marry Han. Therefore, the status of bannermen was hereditary. And as I already mentioned, they were administered separately from the Han.

solarz said:
Finally, what the hell is the "Court of Colonial Affairs"? Sounds like a made up name. How about you give us the Chinese term instead?

What's wrong with made up names? It's a commonly used translation in English language history books for Lifan Yuan. There's are also half a dozen other translations:

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solarz · Mar 4, 2021

nlalyst said:
What I wrote is that out of the five officially recognized people in the Qing Empire, the PRC subdivided the Hui(Muslim) people into ten separate groups and the Manchu people into six separate people. In total, the number of officialy recognized people grew from 5 in Qing to 56 in PRC.

Never heard of the Miao?

It "grew" to 56 because the Qing and ROC governments never bothered themselves with the rest of the ethnic and cultural groups under their rule. It *doesn't* mean those groups didn't exist, with their own identity and traditions, before then. The PRC didn't just invent 51 nationalities out of nowhere.

The PRC has the 56 nationalities enshrined in its laws. What is the meaning of "officially recognized" under the Qing dynasty?

nlalyst said:
No, it didn't work like that.

The Manchus (bannermen) were a hereditary military caste, from which non-banner civilians were excluded. Their primary duty was to fight. When they were not soldiering, they were only permitted to serve as officials in the Qing government or to farm. They were strictly barred from engaging in trade and other occupations. They were residentially segregated from the Han and lived in garrisons and "Manchu citiies". They were even restricted to how far they are allowed to venture from their garrison. They were also socially segregated from the Han: they were forbidden to marry Han. Therefore, the status of bannermen was hereditary. And as I already mentioned, they were administered separately from the Han.

How are the Manchu a "hereditary military caste", when they can be farmers or serve as government officials?

Were they barred from engaging in trade, or were those occupations simply beneath them? You do realize that in dynastic China, merchants had a social status that was just slightly higher than prostitutes?

Qing dynasty laws changed over time as well. By the end of the dynasty, the distinction between Han and Manchu had become extremely blurred anyway. Northwestern China was opened for settlement by Han. Han generals like Zeng Guofan could maintain their own private armies.

nlalyst said:
What's wrong with made up names? It's a commonly used translation in English language history books for Lifan Yuan. There's are also half a dozen other translations:
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It's wrong when it imparts a completely different meaning to the original term: 理藩院

The word 藩 means "vassal", not "colonial".

nlalyst · Mar 4, 2021

solarz said:
Never heard of the Miao?

Yes. Care to elaborate what their status was under the Qing?

solarz said:
It "grew" to 56 because the Qing and ROC governments never bothered themselves with the rest of the ethnic and cultural groups under their rule. It *doesn't* mean those groups didn't exist, with their own identity and traditions, before then. The PRC didn't just invent 51 nationalities out of nowhere.

I never said they didn't exist.

solarz said:
How are the Manchu a "hereditary military caste", when they can be farmers or serve as government officials?

You really enjoy being petty

Soldiering was their primary occupation.

solarz said:
Were they barred from engaging in trade, or were those occupations simply beneath them? You do realize that in dynastic China, merchants had a social status that was just slightly higher than prostitutes?

They were barred.

solarz said:
Qing dynasty laws changed over time as well. By the end of the dynasty, the distinction between Han and Manchu had become extremely blurred anyway. Northwestern China was opened for settlement by Han. Han generals like Zeng Guofan could maintain their own private armies.

While the bannermen system was seriously shaken in the second half of the 19th century, it was still very much alive. What happened was that instead of being differentiated along occupational or cultural lines, they were increasingly differentiated along racial lines thanks to people like Lian Qichao. Read the seven point indictment of the Manchus that the revolutionaries wrote in the post Boxer decade.

solarz said:
It's wrong when it imparts a completely different meaning to the original term: 理藩院

The word 藩 means "vassal", not "colonial".

May it be the case that the authors adapted the Manchu language name instead, which literally translates to the "department for the administration of outlying regions", according to one source from the Wikipedia link? It was after all an exclusively Manchu staffed department, so the Manchu name takes primacy.

solarz · Mar 4, 2021

nlalyst said:
Yes. Care to elaborate what their status was under the Qing?

I never said they didn't exist.

You really enjoy being petty Soldiering was their primary occupation.

They were barred.

While the bannermen system was seriously shaken in the second half of the 19th century, it was still very much alive. What happened was that instead of being differentiated along occupational or cultural lines, they were increasingly differentiated along racial lines thanks to people like Lian Qichao. Read the seven point indictment of the Manchus that the revolutionaries wrote in the post Boxer decade.

May it be the case that the authors adapted the Manchu language name instead, which literally translates to the "department for the administration of outlying regions", according to one source from the Wikipedia link? It was after all an exclusively Manchu staffed department, so the Manchu name takes primacy.

So what is your point exactly? Everything you've claimed so far has been demonstrably false. The PRC did not split "five races" into 56 nationalities. They did not arbitrarily split up the Hui nor did they artificially keep the Han together.

If we go by the Manchu name of 理藩院, then it's even more clear that the separation lies in geography and not ethnicity.

So again, what is the purpose of your incoherent and factually incorrect ramblings?

China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?

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