China's Gender Imbalance

solarz said:

Yes, but that buys a transition time. For example, a guy in his 20's can't find a wife, so he works hard to get rich. Finally, in his 40's, he's rich enough to marry a 25-year-old wife. He did bump another guy in the 20's off the list, who would start the cycle again,

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...increasing mating competition increases overall society productivity and thus comprehensive national strength. Not allowing the weak to reproduce implements social Darwinism and encourages genes for industriousness and intelligence to propagate.

RedMercury said:

...increasing mating competition increases overall society productivity and thus comprehensive national strength. Not allowing the weak to reproduce implements social Darwinism and encourages genes for industriousness and intelligence to propagate.

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That's nonsense. A society where everyone's chief concern is making money is not a society I want to be part of. In fact, that materialism is what I detest the most about Chinese society.

solarz said:

That's nonsense. A society where everyone's chief concern is making money is not a society I want to be part of. In fact, that materialism is what I detest the most about Chinese society.

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In which case you should return to the time of Mao, because that is a capitalist society, until such a time comes when China once again becomes more socialist, which may happen in a generation or two, this is how China will develop.

solarz said:

That's nonsense. A society where everyone's chief concern is making money is not a society I want to be part of. In fact, that materialism is what I detest the most about Chinese society.

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it ruined morals and ethics. actually the west is no better. wt happened was, china kinda imported it in, and greed took on its own lifestyle. the new generations are the major victims of it

solarz said:

That's nonsense. A society where everyone's chief concern is making money is not a society I want to be part of. In fact, that materialism is what I detest the most about Chinese society.

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I agree with the disagree of "materialism is good" part. To the topic, "mating competition" as RedMercury mentioned, ruins whatever civilize out there, and degrade human into the same level of animal.

I am sorry for people comprehend what "social Darwinism" into materialism level - instead of philosophical level. "Last man standing" is not the direction of civilization evolution.

However, solarz, I would like to point out that materialism is not a "Chinese characteristic", it is universal, and mind I say that Chinese society is actually better comparing to what others' situation out there.

- And I "turn myself in" to subject the following statement into a (hopefully) fair modulation - The overseas Chinese ethnic society have its vast differents to the domestic Chinese citizenship society, your feeling of what you "detest the most about Chinese society" reflecting only a small portion of the overall global Chinese communities, and I state that in a matter of fact, Chinese society doing a much better job in terms of non-materialism compare to virtually the rest of the world.

But let's not argue this kind of "is" or "is not"... I think my first paragraph is a foothold we can all share.

Player 0 said:

In which case you should return to the time of Mao, because that is a capitalist society, until such a time comes when China once again becomes more socialist, which may happen in a generation or two, this is how China will develop.

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Not at all. I believe the current tendency toward materialism reflect the financial pressures of living in China. People in China face a lot more competition in order to make a living, than people in, say, Canada. There are more potential stress factors that involve money, such as illness, child education (everything from violin lessons to "bribing" the teachers), the rising cost of living in general, and of course, paying off the mortgage on their house (or saving up enough to buy a house).

In contrast, you can live pretty easily in Canada on an average salary. There's no unreasonable pressure to own a home before you marry, so you can rent or own as you wish. Health care is free, so there is no worry about saving money for unexpected illnesses. If you get laid off, there's Employment Insurance to tide you over until you find another job. You won't be able to afford a yacht or travel to Europe for vacation, but you can go camping, fishing, BBQ, drive to the States, go to movies, etc. All on a pretty average salary.

solarz said:

Not at all. I believe the current tendency toward materialism reflect the financial pressures of living in China. People in China face a lot more competition in order to make a living, than people in, say, Canada. There are more potential stress factors that involve money, such as illness, child education (everything from violin lessons to "bribing" the teachers), the rising cost of living in general, and of course, paying off the mortgage on their house (or saving up enough to buy a house).

In contrast, you can live pretty easily in Canada on an average salary. There's no unreasonable pressure to own a home before you marry, so you can rent or own as you wish. Health care is free, so there is no worry about saving money for unexpected illnesses. If you get laid off, there's Employment Insurance to tide you over until you find another job. You won't be able to afford a yacht or travel to Europe for vacation, but you can go camping, fishing, BBQ, drive to the States, go to movies, etc. All on a pretty average salary.

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And that is capitalism in its truest and rawest form, assuming you agree with libertarians who believe the 19th century to be the high point of real capitalism. This isn't a bad thing, yes people in the west say because of these social conditions China is a hundred years behind the west, but is that such a bad thing considering a hundred years ago the western economies were exceptionally dynamic and grew immensely. It is this sort of socio-economic environment that allows dynamic capitalist development to occur, that's not say its not brutal as capitalism is an inherently brutal system, but it produces high growth and lays the foundations of future development.

The west nowadays aren't capitalist, most of them are social democratic to some degree since the 1930s, assuming you agree with economists like Dambisa Moyo this is the end of capitalism in the west and has led to the current downturn of growth we see today as the social conditions in the west do not permit the sort of high growth powered by market forces that existed in the previous century.

Player 0 said:

And that is capitalism in its truest and rawest form, assuming you agree with libertarians who believe the 19th century to be the high point of real capitalism. This isn't a bad thing, yes people in the west say because of these social conditions China is a hundred years behind the west, but is that such a bad thing considering a hundred years ago the western economies were exceptionally dynamic and grew immensely. It is this sort of socio-economic environment that allows dynamic capitalist development to occur, that's not say its not brutal as capitalism is an inherently brutal system, but it produces high growth and lays the foundations of future development.

The west nowadays aren't capitalist, most of them are social democratic to some degree since the 1930s, assuming you agree with economists like Dambisa Moyo this is the end of capitalism in the west and has led to the current downturn of growth we see today as the social conditions in the west do not permit the sort of high growth powered by market forces that existed in the previous century.

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Good and bad is subjective. I'm sure an ambitious entrepreneur loves China's current situation of free market capitalism and the latitude to "bend" rules. The stiff competition in the labor market also means he can get competent employees while paying less for their compensation.

However, as an ordinary person concerned with the way Chinese people interact with each other, it's one of the aspects that I dislike very much.

I'll be the first (well, missed that) to agree that materialism has its ills. Gender imbalance doesn't necessarily lead to materialism--this was not my point, if you would please re-read my post. There are distinctions between the two and you're smart enough to think carefully about what these distinctions are.

My point is that stiff competition brings out more hard work out of a population, and that is good for the economy. The broader thesis is that a gender imbalance's side effects aren't all bad.

Where do I start, first the gender imbalance is in fact overstated, because many of these supposed infanticides are simply cases of parents refusing to register their baby girls in the census. While some older generation Chinese are inclined to want to carry on their name, Chinese parents, especially the fathers, are hardly willing to sacrifice their daughters, they have a strong protective instinct.

Secondly, while we are at the topic of population I might add that the population aging is also overstated, because among the city dwelling Chinese population there is a lot more marital freedom. I know many cases of Chinese woman marrying and having a child with one husband, then divorcing and having a family with another, this is allowed as long as one parent does not have a child. In this sense 3 parents will have 2 children, not only throwing off earlier estimates but also partly offsetting the gender imbalance.

airsuperiority said:

wt happened was, china kinda imported it in, and greed took on its own lifestyle.

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Not true at all, China during the Ming dynasty is the most capitalistic nation on Earth, surpassed by none. The fall of the Ming dynasty was because it became so decentralized that the local capitalists had as much influence regionally as the Emperor. Fatcats were getting fatter by using loopholes to evade taxes and exploiting the people, living standards fell and the dynasty collapsed before a combination of rebels, corruption, traitors, and foreign invasion.

solarz said:

Not at all. I believe the current tendency toward materialism reflect the financial pressures of living in China. People in China face a lot more competition in order to make a living, than people in, say, Canada. There are more potential stress factors that involve money, such as illness, child education (everything from violin lessons to "bribing" the teachers), the rising cost of living in general, and of course, paying off the mortgage on their house (or saving up enough to buy a house).

In contrast, you can live pretty easily in Canada on an average salary. There's no unreasonable pressure to own a home before you marry, so you can rent or own as you wish. Health care is free, so there is no worry about saving money for unexpected illnesses. If you get laid off, there's Employment Insurance to tide you over until you find another job. You won't be able to afford a yacht or travel to Europe for vacation, but you can go camping, fishing, BBQ, drive to the States, go to movies, etc. All on a pretty average salary.

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That is the kind of complacency I am afraid of, people(myself included) living without a certain amount of pressure will become unproductive. The current life style in Canada and the US is the result of generations of people working under intense pressure, which is the stage China is at right now. Once China get her per capita GDP to the levels of Canada and US, then they can take a step back and relax.