China receives 4 naval ships from Russia

FuManChu said:

I said tactical naval nukes - i.e. ready to fire from an existing ship, as was suggested earlier. You do understand the difference, right?

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Yes, I know what you said. Of course China has them, they're really basic technology. You can put a tactical nuclear warhead on a missile if the missile is big enough. Moskits can be nuclear tipped. A YJ-62 carries a 300kg warhead. That should be plenty big enough to fit a tactical nuke.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

Should, would and could....too much speculations to my eyes, so at least I wont go shouting aloud that China has a tactical nuclear warheads fitted for it's SSMs...you see the "it's easy, others have it too" argument isen't exactly the best...

But I don't see this big cry over the Sovremenyys. I don't know if you guys remeber but back in the late 90's when the deal of the first pair was made, there was already a solid consensus that a seccond pair of modernised desing was to be ordered. This happened years before the 052b/c were even laid down. Like someone said you can see their aqustions as a first step for this huge modernisation program of the chinese fleet. Back in the days when china was making the deal, the aqustion of russian warships was the best solution to get modern destroyers. The 167 was launched in 1997 a year after the Sovremennyy deal so the latest destroyers weren't even designed back then (this is my obnion as I belive that the 167 design was a somewhat failure and the next destroyers went with the Luhu concept). The decision of purchasing a seccond pair was already made when the first par was bought so the fact that they where delivered after the newest chinese DDGs have entered service is merely due the fact that life isen't a computer strategy game...different things needs different times to execute.

Similar pattern is seen with the 051C. When the Shenzhen (167) was launched all the major naval journals talked about seccond hull and it was the 051C. Why it took so long to be launched? Propaply becouse, like I said the 167 wasen't so succesfull and there must have been considerable doupts of the whole programs fruitlity. But perhpas the decions was made to use the hull desing as a aiddefence ship and thus it had a quarter.

It really is pointless to fight and argue which ships are more valuable to PLAN as in it's current state all ships are. Sovremennyys are ironically the most multipurpose vessels of the entire Chinese fleet (tough they where designed rather singlepurpose in mind for the soviet fleet).

But the question really should be will these two ships be the last ships bought from russia?? It's attempting to say that they will be as china have just launched a set of indegenious destroyers. But nasty rumours and secret talks says that those vessels (052C/B) aren't so succecfull either so what can you say? It really depends wheter the chinese will continue building of the 052b (I doupt the 052C will get any further orders at this point) as it seems to be more competitive than it's cousins. But sofar no new hulls have been laid down and usually a there wont be two year delays in shipclasses laid down dates...So as a pessimist i wont be suprised if China would turn to russian help in the future as well.

I noticed that the 051B and 051C were built in Dailan shipyard, while the 052B and 052C are built in Shanghai's Jiangnan shipyard. The 051B and 052B's hull design are quite different, and their sucessors (051C/052C) are enlarged hulls based on the prior design.

The primary weapon systems installed on these ships also differ between the 2 shipyards. Dailian shipyard went with YJ-83 and S-300/RIF, while Jiangnan shipyard went with YJ-62 and HQ-9 on their latest designs.

It looks to me that this is the result of 2 competing shipyards with their own designs, rather than central planning. Normally you'd expect the military to fully evaluate the different platforms, then choose the best one to purchase/build, but the PLAN is in desperate need to replace its old fleet, so they prolly funded both shipyards.

The lack of recent/additional construction may be due to lack of suitable propulsion system, or the PLAN is still unhappy with the product. The last major surface ship that the PLAN was happy with to enter serial/mass production was 053H2/H3 Jiangwei I/II frigates, of which they built 14.

Even though Sovremenny may be stop gap for PLAN, I wouldn't discount it's lethality. Right now, it is PLAN's heavy hitter due to the amount that have been fielded with PLAN compared to modern domestic designs.

But let me ask. Doesn't PLAN put out request for proposals with requirements? If so, that's how these two shipyards are competing. But what's the discrepency of difference in overall ship characteristics? I mean, how does China ensure they're going to get the ship they require when you have such differing movements within their shipbuilding industry? I'm not knocking it. I actually think China's shipbuilders are making headway, and China's domestic designs are seeing gains. But if this is the case, I can see why it's been so difficult for China to build a required vessel in the numbers they seek.

Sea Dog said:

Even though Sovremenny may be stop gap for PLAN, I wouldn't discount it's lethality. Right now, it is PLAN's heavy hitter due to the amount that have been fielded with PLAN compared to modern domestic designs.

But let me ask. Doesn't PLAN put out request for proposals with requirements? If so, that's how these two shipyards are competing. But what's the discrepency of difference in overall ship characteristics? I mean, how does China ensure they're going to get the ship they require when you have such differing movements within their shipbuilding industry? I'm not knocking it. I actually think China's shipbuilders are making headway, and China's domestic designs are seeing gains. But if this is the case, I can see why it's been so difficult for China to build a required vessel in the numbers they seek.

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Hey Sea Dog,

It's true that the Chinese domestic shipbuilders have really improved. However, there is a huge discrepancy between the qualities of the shipyards. Something that Jiangnan is capable of producing, Dalian may not be capable of producing. PLAN only trusts a limited sets of these shipyards. Also, the workmanship between the different shipyards is also different. For example, Dalian built 051C, which is basically modified from 051B. Jiangnan on the other hand was able to build both 052B/C.

As for whether we will see more 052B, I would say a big no. And the reason is 054A. To me, it looks like 054A will have at least the firepower of 052B. It maybe the first ship in plan with medium range defense, long range SSM, towed array sonar, helicopter pad and modern set of sensors. 052B's only advantage of 054A would be endurance, range and displacement.

And then, you will have a 052C (maybe D?) combination with 054A forming the core of PLAN over the next 10 years.

So the shipyards themselves have different skills and abilities. With this in mind, I assume Jiangnan is building the 054A. Yeah, 054A's firepower will be impressive in it's role (and despite it's size).

054A and 052C/D will both make a larger impact once they see more units built. And I have no doubt that Sovremenny's role will be complementary when these come on line. Sovremenny will be primarily a supporting offensive anti-ship role. And 1 carrier will most likely be in service as well.

Sea Dog said:

So the shipyards themselves have different skillsets. With this in mind, I assume Jiangnan is building the 054A. Yeah, 054A's firepower will be impressive in it's role.

054A and 052C/D will both make a larger impact once they see more units built. And I have no doubt that Sovremenny's role will diminish when these come on line. Sovremenny will be primarily a supporting offensive anti-ship role.

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actually, Huangpu and HuDong are building 054A. I know, it gets a little confusing, but HP and HD also built 054, so it's pretty logical for them to be 054A builders. JN is getting relocated and won't get ot its new location until 2008 or 2009. That and the evaluation of 052B/C are probably the reason why you haven't seen any 052 series come out.

Generally, I would say that the Shanghai shipbuilders are the best in China. The two well know ones for PLAN fans are JN and HD.

Interesting part about JN, it built 4 052B/C by itself. Yet, 054 had to be split by HP and HD to come out at relatively the same time. Same with Dalian, there was over 1 year gap between when 115 and 116 got launched.

There were some speculations in the CDF that the Shanghai shipyard which build the 052B/C was moving it's assembly lines to diffenrent location and thats why the production is halted. I personally doupt thats the reason for this stop.

Like Adeptitus said, There haven't been any serial productions of chinese major surface combadants in recent years exept the Jiangwei II. I think this is a big proplem. At the moment china has 4 pair of indegenious destroyers and it seems it has build just two of each and then shifteed to next design. Why it is so? Well there could be several reasons and at least I cannot say anything solid. The "PLAN" doesen't like the design may be one of them but IMO not the sole nor he biggest. If some design has flauws revealed in the trials periods, those can be fixed in the later ships. The latest destroyers are closing up the cap that PLAN has suffered for so long compared to the rest of the world so I found it strange if they are not pleased for the design.

I hate to say this but all this acting like "a child that cannot make up his mind" speaks for one big and unpleasent thing; Chinese inability in the shipbuilding sector. Before I say anything else about this, lets look why it is so and how it got there.

PLAN has been like it's aeronautical brother PLAAF a compliment for the landforces which has gained the number one military status in China. All other branches where intended to support the land forces and thus being in a stepchilds position. Even the names of the brnaches speaks for it (Peoples Liberation army navy and so on). This subjucation ment that the navy's primary task was coastal defence and supporting the armys movements. As most of the limited research and funds went to the PLA, PLAN was left with rather inadequate equipment and doctrines. The navy wasen't intended to operate large sclae independent operations in bluewaters, but to make sure that the PLA could move freely in the lands, not to worry about the seaflank. All the chinese naval vessels build prior 1990 speaks about this doctrine and like with the case of Airforces, navy had to rely on outdated shipdesigns dated back to the imidiate post-WWII era soviet developments.

But things change and since the early 90's china has slowly started to move towards much more reasonble and effective way where all military branches can perform their roles independently and not making them slaves to other branches. With navy case first indication of breaking the circle was the 052 class destroyers (luhus) and 053H3 (Jiangwei) class frigates. Those ships where first ships even resambles towards modern naval thinking. With Jiangweis the design prooved out to be quite succesfull and it's only now being withdraw from the main shipyards as a primary frigate hull. We just have to wait and see if the 054 is as succesfull.

With destroyers the story wasen't as happy as with the frigates. The first ship, 112 had 2 US made LM2500 gasturbines but the seccond ship 113 has Ukrainian gasturbines. Apparently the later is inferior to the american engines and thus not liked by the PLAN. This led us to the biggest single factor of chinese shipbuilding industries defaults, shipengines.
As China wasen't able to optain the LM2500 and weren't satisfied to the performance of the Ukrainian engines, the following ship, 167 (luhai) had old steam powerplant pretty much the same in Luda class (note: In sinodefence mainsite, it's currently saying that the ship would have same GODOG arragment as in the Luhu class but this is physically inpossiple due the two exhaust tunnels of 167, but earlier it said about steam engines and so does other references. I don't know why Dongfeng has changed this, but he can awnser to it better than I)

I don't have to mention about the benefits of GODOG/GOGAG/GODAG arragments agaisnt Steam engines, lets just say that like steam engines (trains) belongs to the past and so should steampowered ships...

But now we have come to the 052B/C classes. The GODOG arragment was choosen again, apparently PLAN decided that in long term it wont be acceptable to build 40 year old technology any longer. The new destroyers have similar engine arragment as the Luhu class, tough their Ukrainian gas turbines are newer model than in the Luhus. But still apparently not sufficient enough for PLAN need. You can see it for yourself. The Ukrainan turbines are not as powwerfull as the good ol' LM2500 and the topspeed of the new chinese ships is only 29 knots.

So my quess is that the reason why there is no serial production of new destroyers is that china haven't been able to produce or obtain a gasturbines powerfull enough for ships of destroyers size. This has led to several unfinnished classes. But there are rumours that china is developing indegenious gasturbines and I suspect that china wont go building a next series of destroyers untill that development in the engine sector has finished.

These setbacks only speaks about the past neglement of big shipbuilding industry. Chinese naval expansion is facing proplems that practiacally all navies have had when starting almoust form nothnig. The requirements of big bluewater navy is not at the moment a par with the building capability of chinese shipyards. But it will only mena that the road is bit longer. In a way this chinese current buildup is somewhat similar to the Soviet navys expansion in the 30's. But what is delighted to see that china is beeing far more realistic than the soviets back then and have not produced a vast numbers of illsuited equipment.

PS. What the hell we are talking about ships in general discussion forum? Moved to navy forum.

couple of points I want to add:

1. The Chinese language name of PLAN is actually: People's Sea Force. PLAAF is People's Air Force. PLA is People's Liberation Force. There's absoutely no mention of Army in those chinese names. In the late 60s, China internally discussed to remove 'Liberation' and just call the army People's Land Force, but Zhu De(officially,not actually, the top commander of PLA) said to leave it until Taiwan is liberated.

2. "Small batches and quick runs", that's the publiclly declared modernisation strategy for PLAN since 1980s. In other words, it's exactly PLAN's strategy to only build small number of ships per class and try to produce more classes of ships. I think it's rather simple to understand that, if you are lagging behind by several generations, you need to cover those generations(classes of ships) in order to catch up. And you would be extremely foolish to produce large number of ships of some interim classes.

3. This particular strategy is of course not perfect, but I think it's appropriate for PLAN. Just compare what they have done in the last 20 years, I give them a much higher marks than PLAAF.

4. JiangJan shipyard has been moved out of ShangHai, evenif you have a blank cheque for them, they won't be able to deliver any large military ships. But their new shipyards are forming very quickly and the very first Production Line is for Military ships.

5. PLAN's long term planning actually is quite impressive. The current 052C(which is the old 052B) was first initiated in the late 80s, like a cut down Arleigh Burke. But they know the gap was too big and the only viable solution is to achieve the goal in phases and each stage only cover certain percentage of new techs.

6. Although china has quite a number of ship builders, there's only ONE military ship designer. All of the destroyer and frigates, 051, 052, 053, 054, they are from one designer institute. Dalian and JN only compete for the construction, not the design. They follow the design accepted by PLAN. (That's why all those critics on Dalian's ship design is not valid, those designs are not their works and not even chosen by them). The 051B(DDG167)'s hull is derived from 052. ) 052B/C's hull design is derived from 051B, although from outside they may look different. 051 and 052, although have different engine types, they are of the same family tree.

7. 051B(167)'s main design goal was to prove the so called medium general purpose hull design (6000-7000ton), the steam engine and the C4I system. They never dreamed of catching up with AB in one go.

8. The 2 Sovs bought in the 90s was a very important stepping stone. No matter how you evaluate their performance, the significance is no less than all the domestic classes.

9. Most of the important stuff in the second Sov deal (1.4bn USD) are not on those 2 ships. They were delievered long time ago. The steak has been eaten, although salad is still on the way.

10. Steam Engine is an important part of PLAN's road map, because nuclear power will play a more and more important role.

11. In the foreseable future, there won't be mass production of any destroyers, definitely not 052C, very slim chances of 052D. 052E may be.

12. The rumored engine problems were just from one or two guys' speculations. The detailed rumor was all 4 052B/C ships can't even move now. They used the auxilury power to sail 3000 kms back to ShangHai to get repaired. But the truth is 052B/C ships reached/reaching the one year warranty check period that's why they are going back to the ship yards one by one. Well, dealer paid free service, why not? According to one guy who actually did the warranty check of his company's product, 169's one year check result was the best he had seen.

13. That's not to say 052B/C work like charms. No, there are problems, but that's exactly the purpose of building small numbers of them. To make certain new tech stable so that 052D can verify other new techs.

14. All these small batches do create maintanence problems, and much higher unit prices. But, China has not reached most other established marine powers' stage yet. China will only follow the common sense when she significantlly narrowed down the gaps of technology and the gaps remain stable for a while. If she follows the common sense, she will not be able to catch up with leader, unless the leader makes huge mistakes continously, which you really shouldn't take that kind of things into your planning.