China-Pakistan finalize frigate deal

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
isthvan said:
Well I would guess that it doesn’t matter which they choused because if we are realistic both HQ-7 and LY-60 aren’t exactly top of the line... Both have quite limited capabilities and can provide only weary limited protection against SSM because they were never intended for that role... IMHO China should ASAP introduce more modern and capable short/medium range air defense system if they won’t to provide credible protection for there ships...

I think that PN needed to fallow Thai example and install western air defense system on this frigates, and Sea Sparrow or Apside would probably be better option especially since newly bought ex. Greek Kortnaers use Sea Sparrow...
Many countries are using Crotale NG and still using Crotale, so it's not really a bad system. I'm not saying HQ-7 is at the level of Crotale NG, but I think it can still offer satisfactory performance against sea-skimming missiles.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
tphuang said:
Many countries are using Crotale NG and still using Crotale, so it's not really a bad system. I'm not saying HQ-7 is at the level of Crotale NG, but I think it can still offer satisfactory performance against sea-skimming missiles.

Well If we look at the time when original system was designed and consider possible modifications China made to it basic design it would still have only limited use as missile defense system... Crotale simple wasn’t mad for that task and rocket design can’t provide enough agility or speed for missile defenses…

Crotale NG isn’t modification of original design but completely new system whit similar name and South Africans also developed new missile for there old Crotale systems… These systems have much more agile and faster missiles compared to Crotale and these new missiles don’t have any similarities to original Crotale missile… Now if we look at latest HQ-7 you can see that missile is basically the same so I assume that PRC made only modifications to guidance system to provide some usefulness in anti-missile role.
 

eecsmaster

Junior Member
"Well If we look at the time when original system was designed and consider possible modifications China made to it basic design it would still have only limited use as missile defense system... Crotale simple wasn’t mad for that task and rocket design can’t provide enough agility or speed for missile defenses…"

I beg to differ. Crotale was originally a land based SHORAD system, and one of the requirements was the destruction of rapid and lowflying objects. Crotale was, and is, a very effective terminal defense system. Case in point, look at the sea wolf. The requirement for this was issued in '64.

As for Crotale NG, it's not a new missile. It's an improvement using solid state electronics, smaller container size, and a bigger warhead/rocket.

PS. it's very, not weary

also, what you see of the HQ-7 isn't the missile, but the missile cannisters. The missile has been improved to a great extent.
 

swimmerXC

Unregistered
VIP Professional
Registered Member
HQ-7 probably have a better chance against a sea skimmer than the HQ-9, the Rif has a minimum operating altitude of 0.025 km which is 25 meters. While FM-90 is 15 meters.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
eecsmaster said:
I beg to differ. Crotale was originally a land based SHORAD system, and one of the requirements was the destruction of rapid and lowflying objects. Crotale was, and is, a very effective terminal defense system. Case in point, look at the sea wolf. The requirement for this was issued in '64.

As for Crotale NG, it's not a new missile. It's an improvement using solid state electronics, smaller container size, and a bigger warhead/rocket.

Well Crotale was newer developed as missile defense system, missile is to slow (Max speed 2.3m) and has min. operative altitude of 15m. Also CrotaleNG uses new highly maneuverable VT1 missile whit max speed of mach 3.5.
Also SA developed new SAHV missile and it is used on there’s modified Crotale systems against fast, low flying targets while original missiles will be used against slower targets… I doubt French and S.A. would waste many on new missile development if few modifications of older system could provide same performance…

eecsmaster said:
PS. it's very, not weary

Thanks for spelling corrections, English isn’t my native language so I misspell some words sometime:(

eecsmaster said:
also, what you see of the HQ-7 isn't the missile, but the missile cannisters. The missile has been improved to a great extent.

Could you provide some additional info? All I find about HQ-7mod is that it has improved guidance system…
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
isthvan said:
Well Crotale was newer developed as missile defense system, missile is to slow (Max speed 2.3m) and has min. operative altitude of 15m. Also CrotaleNG uses new highly maneuverable VT1 missile whit max speed of mach 3.5.
mach 2.3 is fast enough to intercept any kind of missile. You know where the AShM is going after, so you don't necessarily have to be faster than it to intercept it. Now, the minimum operative altitude is a problem. But that's the listed value for the export version of land based system. I doubt the domestic version of sea based system is that high. If it can get lowered to around 5, then that should be alright.
Also SA developed new SAHV missile and it is used on there’s modified Crotale systems against fast, low flying targets while original missiles will be used against slower targets… I doubt French and S.A. would waste many on new missile development if few modifications of older system could provide same performance…
imo, guidance is more important than the actual missile capability.
Thanks for spelling corrections, English isn’t my native language so I misspell some words sometime:(
Could you provide some additional info? All I find about HQ-7mod is that it has improved guidance system…
No worries.
According to sinodefence on FM-90
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"In addition, the missile's seeking/homing range, maximum speed, and attack range all have been improved, which greatly increases its combat effectiveness. With a maximum detecting range of 25km, the FM-90 is capable of attacking three targets using three different guidance modes simultaneously. The missile also has anti-missile ability against ultra-low-altitude cruise missiles, air-to-surface missiles, and anti-radiation missiles at a distance of 17km."

look a lot of the stats are not revealed, due to the nature of PLAN, but you can imagine the upgrade that China has made to Crotale in the last 20 years. At the same time, domestic version of HQ-7 is always superior to export versions like FM-80/90

Excuse me for the late edit, but I thought this is kind of interesting. Again, this is the export version of HQ-7.
fm90n3kw.jpg


Crotale NG info
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

comparisons for export version of HQ-7 and Crotale NG:
both claim to be all weather against low cruising AShM, cruise missiles, helicopters and aircrafts
engagement range: 13 KM vs 11 KM
altitude: 5 to 6000 m vs surveillence radar of 0 to 5000 m but a missile of stated altitude of 6 km, but no stated minimum altitude
load: 35g vs 35g
Reaction time: 6.5 s vs 6 s
speed: not stated vs mach 3.5

And there is also the sensors, which is not stated in the image, but in the sinodefence page. You can compare that too.
After this, I don't think FM-90N is doing really that badly.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
Thanks for those FM-90M specifications tphuang. Obviously I was wrong and this version has considerably improved abilities. Do you know is this variant in operational service whit PLAN?

As for speed anti missile defenses need high speed missiles because ASM is quite difficult to detect, ships usually have only few seconds to respond so slower missile will engage target relatively close to ship…
 
Top