China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
Many, including myself, were doubtful about the effectiveness of China's diplomatic campaign in Europe. Well, here's the result, and China did not need to cede any territory to achieve this.

Let's see if it keeps up though. Remember the UK also said the same thing about 5G six months ago and now it's done an about face and leading the D10. Let's see if Germany actually allows Huawei 5g implemented in Europe (not just promised).

Also, remember the EU still has its arms embargo on sales to China, it was thinking of removing it as recently as 2005. I don't think this means the EU is on China's side at all.
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
I'm thinking about what would happen if China actively conceded the territorial disputes with its neighbours.

I have to agree with @manqiangrexue

It wouldn't actually buy China better relations.

The anti-China (and pro-US) factions in these countries would point out that US-led pressure has successfully forced China to give up its claims.
They would also point out that an even stronger anti-China alliance with the USA is in their future interests.

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So I think the proper strategy is to shelve disputes with its neighbours as much as possible.

But if a dispute flares up, the outcome ALWAYS has to be a loss for the party that actively opposed China.

That has to be part of the socialisation process so that China's neighbours recognise that they will end up as the loser if they count on the US to help them.

Realistically, China will have better relations with its neighbours only when they decide it is better to follow China first, and not the USA.

And that will only come from China being stronger and more influential than the USA.

Deng Xiaoping said to seek truth from facts. Your post is based on nothing but speculation.

Here are the facts.

Since the end of the Cold War, China has settled border disputes with Laos, Vietnam, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikstan. In not a single one of these disputes did China fail to compromise and give up claims to at least some of the land previously claimed. In most cases China received less than 50% of the disputed land.

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In none of the cases did "factions in these countries" use the resolutions to point for "an even stronger anti-China alliance." In none of these cases did giving up land claims stop the rise of China, in fact, solving this disputes coincided with it.

Today Russia is perhaps China's most important ally and is cooperating with China on a number of fronts including having sold China the Su-35 and S400 systems and is collaborating with China on the CR929 project.

Secondly, resolving border disputes does not mean China is "giving up land."

For example of China and India agreed to formalize the LAC, neither side would necessarily give up an inch. They would each simply accept de jure what each respectively already controls.

It is pointless to have a claim that you never enforce. All it does is prove your own impotence. Giving up an unenforceable claim costs nothing, all it means is that you are secure enough to accept reality and don't want to start a war. That's a good thing.
 
Exactly. Anyone with a lick of sense should have realized this a dozen pages ago. So anyone who persists in arguing this approach is either illiterate, intellectually insufficient, or an outright traitor or impostor.

Pompeo is setting the stage for his meeting with Chinese representative in Hawaii. Selling his usual vile.
Question is will EU bite to being a stage prop?
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
Seriously, if land is the most important thing to power, then the most powerful countries in the world are:

1. Russia
2. Canada
3. US
4. China
5. Brazil
6. Australia

Like come on does anyone really think Russia is the most powerful country and Canada is more powerful than the US, or that Brazil and Australia are 5th and 6th?

Small differences in land area does not determine a country's power, security, wealth or anything else. What is most important is that the Chinese people have a good life, are prosperous, that China has the technology to lead the world and defend itself and its interests. This requires advanced technology, alliances, and a strong trading economy. Whether or not you control 1,000 sq km of barren frost at the top of the Himalayas or some island in the middle of nowhere that will be drowned by global warming, has nothing to do with it.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
Geopolitics has self-serving transactional horsetrading nature, while regular retail politics on national scene has carefree relationship with the truth - a charming euphemism for lying and cheating, which by its own nature sells, along with slender, scandals, sex and gossip: standard operating procedures of western MSM.
It would be so utterly absurd it would be outright comical if we try to please aggressive encroaching neighbors so much to bend so far backward to ingratiate them to a point that, as suggested, at times, you might fear China would need regular chiropractic service.
This dude, and his many other multiple sock puppet accounts, like gadgetcool5,free_6ix9ine, or whatever, had been run on a rail so many times he could even claim he is the most persecuted, derided, taunted person in human history other than Jesus Christ himself when he was alive.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Seriously, if land is the most important thing to power, then the most powerful countries in the world are:

1. Russia
2. Canada
3. US
4. China
5. Brazil
6. Australia

Like come on does anyone really think Russia is the most powerful country and Canada is more powerful than the US, or that Brazil and Australia are 5th and 6th?

Small differences in land area does not determine a country's power, security, wealth or anything else. What is most important is that the Chinese people have a good life, are prosperous, that China has the technology to lead the world and defend itself and its interests. This requires advanced technology, alliances, and a strong trading economy. Whether or not you control 1,000 sq km of barren frost at the top of the Himalayas or some island in the middle of nowhere that will be drowned by global warming, has nothing to do with it.
Lol Russia was for awhile the most powerful country . Remember they used to be called the USSR.

Land and population does play a role. One day India will be a superpower too, because they are big and got a lot of land, thus resources. Australia and Canada lack the population and will to be powerful. We are too busy being American lackeys here in Canada.

That barren frost waste Land could just happen to look over your neighbors' capital city, then you put a artillery division there.. or in the case of Russia, its strategic depth.. so deep the French, Swedes and Germans all got their butts handed to them by winter.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Seriously, if land is the most important thing to power, then the most powerful countries in the world are:

1. Russia
2. Canada
3. US
4. China
5. Brazil
6. Australia

Like come on does anyone really think Russia is the most powerful country and Canada is more powerful than the US, or that Brazil and Australia are 5th and 6th?

Small differences in land area does not determine a country's power, security, wealth or anything else. What is most important is that the Chinese people have a good life, are prosperous, that China has the technology to lead the world and defend itself and its interests. This requires advanced technology, alliances, and a strong trading economy. Whether or not you control 1,000 sq km of barren frost at the top of the Himalayas or some island in the middle of nowhere that will be drowned by global warming, has nothing to do with it.

It's really not very subtle when you use all your alt accounts to argue the same point.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Do you think the United States has never given up land? It gave up the Philippines and Cuba. It gave up the Panama Canal. It gave up Okinawa. It withdrew troops from Iraq. If it wanted, the United States could occupy many other countries, but it chooses not to. That is because it knows its real strength is not in land but in technology and alliances.
Does the US have good relations with Cuba? Do you think America's relations with Japan is because it gave up Okinawa (after conquering it) or is it because it beat Japan into a pulp and gave Japan no choice? Both of these support the counter-argument to your argument. You are terrible at finding examples, aren't you? Just like your next one:
For instance, look at the UK debate over Huawei. Until 2020, the UK defied the US and agreed to let Huawei into 35% of its network. According to your theory, this is impossible, since the US with its strength would have "ruined" the UK..
Not impossible at all. I also said that the power balance was shifting more towards China and as that continues, there will be more and more instances of defiance against America. If China had no power, the world was still in lockstep with American hegemony, the UK would not dare to pick Huawei.

Then what happened between the time the UK told the US to shove off and when it said it would try to phase out Huawei as fast as it can (even though it said that before as well)? Oh, yeah, COVID-19. Any change is obviously due purely to the irrational anger of the UK at the pandemic they are suffering.
Having friends is critical.
Friends who respect and wish to follow you for your strength, not "friends" who you temporarily earned through concessions.
The two choices we have:

1) We sacrifice some of our pride: Put away the territorial disputes with ASEAN, Japan, India for now. Doesn't mean we have to concede anything, just tone down the aggressive rhetoric. Solve tensions with the EU over Xinjiang reeducation camps, "Unfair" trade practices and find commonalities that both sides can support: Paris Agreement, Multilateralism, Globalization, etc.

2) We continue our disputes with all these nations and the EU, and end up making a bunch of enemies, that we have to fight, while the US laughs at us while we exhaust our energy feuding with ASEAN, India, Japan, EU etc.
Those are the 2 you give to your imaginary country. China's choice is not in your comprehension:

Become strong enough such that there is no doubt that in Asia, China's word is final, then settle all its disputes in a position of strength, negotiating with selective generosity to those who embrace Chinese power. For true Chinese patriots, nothing else suffices as a victory.
Lets comprehensively list all of China's perceived enemies aside from the US:

1) India --> dispute over Ladakh and borders.
2) Vietnam --> dispute over spratley
3) Philippines --> dispute of SCS
4) Malaysia --> dispute over SCS
5) South Korea --> dispute over THAAD
6) Taiwan --> dispute over Taiwan independence
7) Japan --> dispute over Diaoyu
8) Austrailia --> dispute over HK and Huawei 5G
9) Canada --> dispute over HK and Huawei 5G
10) UK --> dispute over HK and Huawei 5G

The only entities on this list that we have a truly unresolvable dispute with is Taiwan.
So your "solution" to 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 is just give it up, and to 8-10 is what? Hands off Hong Kong and beg for them to accept Huawei? LOL By the way you do things, why's Taiwan not resolvable? Just give up like you give everything else up. Why draw the line there? You were willing to sell it out for a semiconductor company that would be dead without US tech the instant it hit your hands anyway LOL. When the answer to everything is, "sacrifice your pride" and give up, what in the world is unsolvable?
Since the end of the Cold War, China has settled border disputes with Laos, Vietnam, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikstan. In not a single one of these disputes did China fail to compromise and give up claims to at least some of the land previously claimed. In most cases China received less than 50% of the disputed land.
China was much weaker back then. So are all these countries now permanent Chinese allies grateful for what they got or are they asking for more and change their position routinely depending on whether they can gain more from being with or against China? Proves my point perfectly against yours.

Secondly, resolving border disputes does not mean China is "giving up land."

For example of China and India agreed to formalize the LAC, neither side would necessarily give up an inch. They would each simply accept de jure what each respectively already controls.
First of all, accepting foreign occupation of your territory just because they are there is giving up land; it's just not giving up even more land. Secondly, is that what the Indians want or do they want more than what they control? And if they got what they wanted, would they want more afterwards? The world is oversimplified in your mind.
It is pointless to have a claim that you never enforce. All it does is prove your own impotence. Giving up an unenforceable claim costs nothing, all it means is that you are secure enough to accept reality and don't want to start a war. That's a good thing.
Who says it's unenforceable? The key part of "enforceable" is force. You have enough, what was unenforceable yesterday is enforceable today and China's force just keeps on growing.
Seriously, if land is the most important thing to power, then the most powerful countries in the world are:

1. Russia
2. Canada
3. US
4. China
5. Brazil
6. Australia

Small differences in land area does not determine a country's power, security, wealth or anything else. What is most important is that the Chinese people have a good life, are prosperous, that China has the technology to lead the world and defend itself and its interests. This requires advanced technology, alliances, and a strong trading economy. Whether or not you control 1,000 sq km of barren frost at the top of the Himalayas or some island in the middle of nowhere that will be drowned by global warming, has nothing to do with it.
Land is not the only or most important factor to power, but it is one of them. This may be how you carry yourself, but we don't give things up just because "it's not the most important thing." What's rightfully ours is ours; it's a matter of principle if nothing else. Chinese people cannot tolerate the country losing bits and pieces of itself on all sides; it's terrible for morale even if the land is not currently valuable. Go to some other country and convince them to give up everything that's not crucial because you cannot convince China. That would be the best way you can help.

China will give up none its claims and it will grow the be the most powerful country in the world all the same. Nobody needs your cure to diseases that don't exist.
 
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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Does the US have good relations with Cuba? Do you think America's relations with Japan is because it gave up Okinawa (after conquering it) or is it because it beat Japan into a pulp and gave Japan no choice? Both of these support the counter-argument to your argument. You are terrible at finding examples, aren't you? Just like your next one:

Not impossible at all. I also said that the power balance was shifting more towards China and as that continues, there will be more and more instances of defiance against America. If China had no power, the world was still in lockstep with American hegemony, the UK would not dare to pick Huawei.

Then what happened between the time the UK told the US to shove off and when it said it would try to phase out Huawei as fast as it can (even though it said that before as well)? Oh, yeah, COVID-19. Any change is obviously due purely to the irrational anger of the UK at the pandemic they are suffering.

Friends who respect and wish to follow you for your strength, not "friends" who you temporarily earned through concessions.

Those are the 2 you give to your imaginary country. China's choice is not in your comprehension:

Become strong enough such that there is no doubt that in Asia, China's word is final, then settle all its disputes in a position of strength, negotiating with selective generosity to those who embrace Chinese power. For true Chinese patriots, nothing else suffices as a victory.

So your "solution" to 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 is just give it up, and to 8-10 is what? Hands off Hong Kong and beg for them to accept Huawei? LOL By the way you do things, why's Taiwan not resolvable? Just give up like you give everything else up. Why draw the line there? You were willing to sell it out for a semiconductor company that would be dead without US tech the instant it hit your hands anyway LOL. When the answer to everything is, "sacrifice your pride" and give up, what in the world is unsolvable?

China was much weaker back then. So are all these countries now permanent Chinese allies grateful for what they got or are they asking for more and change their position routinely depending on whether they can gain more from being with or against China? Proves my point perfectly against yours.


First of all, accepting foreign occupation of your territory just because they are there is giving up land; it's just not giving up even more land. Secondly, is that what the Indians want or do they want more than what they control? And if they got what they wanted, would they want more afterwards? The world is oversimplified in your mind.

Who says it's unenforceable? The key part of "enforceable" is force. You have enough, what was unenforceable yesterday is enforceable today and China's force just keeps on growing.

Land is not the only or most important factor to power, but it is one of them. This may be how you carry yourself, but we don't give things up just because "it's not the most important thing." What's rightfully ours is ours; it's a matter of principle if nothing else. Chinese people cannot tolerate the country losing bits and pieces of itself on all sides; it's terrible for morale even if the land is not currently valuable. Go to some other country and convince them to give up everything that's not crucial because you cannot convince China. That would be the best way you can help.

China will give up none its claims and it will grow the be the most powerful country in the world all the same. Nobody needs your cure to diseases that don't exist.

Hi manqiangrexue

Had you watch ERIC LI in youtube, man he ROCKS, China needs more of him to disseminate its position. The problem is CHINESE are more introvert, we talk less, abhor useless and nonsensical topic, but his point on PEACEFUL RISE is SPOT ON. China had able to achieve what she is today thru SHEER HARDWORK and NON INTERVENTIONIST.

In my view, the best doctrine CHINA needed to do is being more open, both intellectually and personal interaction. China needS to be more receptive/welcoming of foreigners , it may bring ill intention/bad people , but you may get more allies that support your cause.
The best defense against a propaganda is TRUTH, people who visited CHINA are always amaze, cause they believe what they are told, its the best counter propaganda strategy.

Whatever doctrine CHINA choose the leadership and the people must be ready for any negative news coming from the west, its part of a coming out party, they know their system is broken and need to deflect , this pandemic had shown the the effectiveness of CHINESE SYSTEM and PEOPLE from the west are asking their govt difficult question that needed answered.
 
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