China IRBM/SRBM (and non-ICBM/SLBM) thread

[nativechicken]

Whoever wrote that piece was probably salivating on the prospect of B-21s launching JASSM-ERs and TELs stationed in Japan and the Philippines launching LRHWs towards the DF-26 bases located in China's interior with impunity - Before suddenly realizing that those DF-26s are somehow already mated with nuclear warheads, and that doing so could result in a nuclear exchange with China, blah blah blah.

To be honest, I find it to be quite rare to see people on the Chinese internet space and Chinese social media talking about how China's MRBMs and IRBMs will be nuclear-capable. All the talks about DF-17s, DF-26s and DF-27s I see mainly revolve around how to sink US carriers, other warships and strike at US bases in the Pacific, with little to nada mention about arming those missiles with nukes.

In the meantime, the only times I see nukes being mentioned a lot are when the discussion/reporting are mainly about China's ICBMs, i.e. DF-5, DF-31AG, DF-41, JL-2 and JL-3.

So, I have no idea why these defense-watching people in the West always like to hype up the nuke threat from China, as if China's about to use nukes once the war breaks out in the WestPac.

Self-projection and 做贼心虚 are hard-to-die habits, I suppose.

DF26/27 is the Chinese version of the MGM-134A Midgetman ICBM.
DF26/27 has an oversized third stage (integrated) warhead. This third stage may weigh 2.4t
It can accommodate 1.6t of liquid fuel (more than 10 years ago, I posted a document screenshot on the CD forum). Equipped with a liquid engine with 3000N-5000N thrust.
There are discussions on Chinese forums, but Chinese military fans consciously don't say much about strategic nuclear weapons.
DF26/27 third-level continuous work information is hard to find in Chinese literature.
But if you pay attention to the jumping trajectory, that is, the literature of multiple intermittent firings to achieve multiple trajectory jumps (the warhead can do a large angle of yaw). You can find a lot of information.
The third stage of DF26 can achieve at least 2-3 ignitions, making the trajectory completely unpredictable.

 

[yeetmyboi]

DF26/27 is the Chinese version of the MGM-134A Midgetman ICBM.

That is certainly an ambitious statement. Perhaps you can have some proof for that? If DF-26 can attain the same range of Midgetman in a substatially smaller package, then congrats to Chinese engineers.

 

[nativechicken]

That is certainly an ambitious statement. Perhaps you can have some proof for that? If DF-26 can attain the same range of Midgetman in a substatially smaller package, then congrats to Chinese engineers.

Generally speaking, the DF-26 is a 20+t secondary missile (with a launch weight of approximately 19-22t).
The problem is that it can actually be level three. Generally speaking, a two-stage ballistic missile refers to a rocket booster, and the warhead is also considered a payload stage. When the mass of the conventional charge warhead is above 2 tons. This is the second stage ballistic missile (with a pure ballistic range of 5000+km). The load of a nuclear warhead is equivalent to 100kt-150kt, and the actual mass of the warhead is about 150kg. A 500kt nuclear warhead usually weighs only 300-500kg. So for DF26, as a nuclear vehicle, the third stage can completely add a 1.6t rocket engine and fuel system. You can achieve the range of intercontinental missiles.
The 1.4 meter diameter solid rocket engine in China has achieved a thrust of at least 550 kn (in fact, larger thrust is not a problem, and the maximum thrust has data close to Militia 3). Just take a look at the Kuaishou 1A carrier rocket. This level of engine can achieve a payload of 200kg in SSO 700km orbit (4-stage rocket).
So, the secret of DF-26 lies in the DF26 of the nuclear warhead, the third stage, and the rocket engine. This rocket engine can easily deliver 500kg warheads of DF26 up to tens of thousands of kilometers (7200-7500m/s)

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Generally speaking, the DF-26 is a 20+t secondary missile (with a launch weight of approximately 19-22t).
The problem is that it can actually be level three. Generally speaking, a two-stage ballistic missile refers to a rocket booster, and the warhead is also considered a payload stage. When the mass of the conventional charge warhead is above 2 tons. This is the second stage ballistic missile (with a pure ballistic range of 5000+km). The load of a nuclear warhead is equivalent to 100kt-150kt, and the actual mass of the warhead is about 150kg. A 500kt nuclear warhead usually weighs only 300-500kg. So for DF26, as a nuclear vehicle, the third stage can completely add a 1.6t rocket engine and fuel system. You can achieve the range of intercontinental missiles.
The 1.4 meter diameter solid rocket engine in China has achieved a thrust of at least 550 kn (in fact, larger thrust is not a problem, and the maximum thrust has data close to Militia 3). Just take a look at the Kuaishou 1A carrier rocket. This level of engine can achieve a payload of 200kg in SSO 700km orbit (4-stage rocket).
So, the secret of DF-26 lies in the DF26 of the nuclear warhead, the third stage, and the rocket engine. This rocket engine can easily deliver 500kg warheads of DF26 up to tens of thousands of kilometers (7200-7500m/s)

So, if I do understand your post correctly - Which means that if China really wants to develop a Midgetman-size ICBM, they can surely do so through a futher development on the DF-26 by:
1. Adding a third stage onto the missile, and
2. Fitting the missile with one 300-500kg nuclear warhead?

 

[taxiya]

DF26/27 is the Chinese version of the MGM-134A Midgetman ICBM.
DF26/27 has an oversized third stage (integrated) warhead. This third stage may weigh 2.4t
It can accommodate 1.6t of liquid fuel (more than 10 years ago, I posted a document screenshot on the CD forum). Equipped with a liquid engine with 3000N-5000N thrust.
There are discussions on Chinese forums, but Chinese military fans consciously don't say much about strategic nuclear weapons.
DF26/27 third-level continuous work information is hard to find in Chinese literature.
But if you pay attention to the jumping trajectory, that is, the literature of multiple intermittent firings to achieve multiple trajectory jumps (the warhead can do a large angle of yaw). You can find a lot of information.
The third stage of DF26 can achieve at least 2-3 ignitions, making the trajectory completely unpredictable.

Can you post that document that you posed in CD forum here?

 

[taxiya]

That is certainly an ambitious statement. Perhaps you can have some proof for that? If DF-26 can attain the same range of Midgetman in a substatially smaller package, then congrats to Chinese engineers.

If we are to believe in wiki, DF-21's lift-off mass is higher than Midgetman, 14.7t vs. 13.6t. So if their warheads have the same mass, DF-21 will have more fuel, and assuming the fuels and engines are of same performace, DF-21 is theorotically capable of having longer range than Midgetman. DF-26 is even larger, so it isn't out of reason to have equal range.

It all depends how much mass you want to throw, you can either throw many tons to a shorter distance, or some hundreds kilograms to a much longer distance. I am not arguing that PLA choose to have DF-26 to do so, but technically the potential is there.

 

[nativechicken]

So, if I do understand your post correctly - Which means that if China really wants to develop a Midgetman-size ICBM, they can surely do so through a futher development on the DF-26 by:
1. Adding a third stage onto the missile, and
2. Fitting the missile with one 300-500kg nuclear warhead?

It was done N years ago

 

[nativechicken]

Can you post that document that you posed in CD forum here?

I need to take my time searching, it was all over 10 years ago. I have replaced several computers.
10 years ago, I focused on researching anti-ship ballistic missiles. I have been studying for nearly 10 years. Accumulated a lot of information.
Now my main concern is CZ9. I don't know which archived hard drive the previous information was stored on.
All the information is available in CNKI, and you can locate the file by finding the keywords.
There will be no clear and definite statement. But if you are familiar with rocket specifications and data.
Basically, you know what that thing is at a glance.

 

[nativechicken]

If we are to believe in wiki, DF-21's lift-off mass is higher than Midgetman, 14.7t vs. 13.6t. So if their warheads have the same mass, DF-21 will have more fuel, and assuming the fuels and engines are of same performace, DF-21 is theorotically capable of having longer range than Midgetman. DF-26 is even larger, so it isn't out of reason to have equal range.

It all depends how much mass you want to throw, you can either throw many tons to a shorter distance, or some hundreds kilograms to a much longer distance. I am not arguing that PLA choose to have DF-26 to do so, but technically the potential is there.

The initial weight of MGM134A in the United States was 13.x tons, but it was later changed to around 16 tons.
The United States actually terminated the project without completing the development of MGM134A. You can tell by looking at the number of test launches data.
The maximum range data and maximum payload mass of US ballistic missiles are usually unreliable. Basically, the maximum range is a light warhead, and the maximum payload mass range is reduced. This is true for Militia 3 missiles and Peacekeeper missiles, as well as the Trident D5.
The intercontinental missiles in the United States actually have a range greater than 5000km, even if they are intercontinental missiles. His main goal was the Soviet Union. The distance between the Soviet Union and the United States is relatively small. The definition of Chinese intercontinental missiles is that their range must be much greater than 8000km. Because the local distance between China and the United States is at least 8000km.
The diameter of the Chinese DF21 is larger than that of the dwarf missile. One is 1.4 meters, and the other is 1.12 meters.
DF21 is a 2-stage solid rocket missile, but DF26 is an actual 3-stage missile. The length of DF21 is 11-13 meters.
DF26 is 16 meters or even longer. So DF26 has enough length to fit the third stage.
The key is the maximum thrust of the DF26 first stage engine, which determines the takeoff quality.
In the literature, for a 1.4 meter solid rocket stage, the thrust design can be arbitrarily selected from 450-900 KN.
(The first stage thrust of the antique 1.4-meter solid rocket was less than 400kn, while the first stage thrust of Militia 3 was over 900kn in the early stage, and later it rose to nearly 1000kn)
Generally, the takeoff thrust to weight ratio of solid rockets is 2:1 or 3:1. So a 20t DF26 equipped with a rocket engine with a thrust of over 550KN is a normal choice.
So you don't have to doubt that DF26 is the Chinese version of MGM134A. The United States has not actually completed research and development.

 

[nativechicken]

I haven't paid attention to domestic ballistic missiles for a long time. I just checked some of the latest literature. I haven't found the information I used to read yet.
Find a 2017 literature. It is rare to disclose information on engines used for early 1.4,2.0 meter ballistic missiles in China (as can be seen from the thrust of the 2-meter first stage solid engine, the data is too old). And various combination methods for military emergency small satellite launch.
There are various combinations inside, among which the combination of 11-21-x is basically DF31/JL2.
The 13-23-x combination is basically the early DF21 (third stage+warhead approximately 1t+)
The 12-22-x combination is the DF26/DN/KZ1/KT series
Table 6
Reference 5 is a charge similar to DF26. Entering orbit with a weight of 100kg can basically reach the level of over 500kg for intercontinental missiles.
The reason is that in order to overcome gravity loss during orbit entry, the actual dv required is 1000m/s higher than that of intercontinental ballistic missiles
So the carrier rocket of DF26 in the article. Basically, it's a small intercontinental ballistic missile. Note that the combination of 13-23-x in the table also has a speed of 7500m/s, which cannot enter orbit, but can achieve a range of at least 150kg warheads of 11000-12000km or more.
In fact, the solid rocket engine performance of China's ballistic missiles is higher at this stage.
The third stage of all combinations in the table is a solid engine. If a liquid engine is replaced, the performance will be better (vacuum solid engine specific impulse can be 280-290s, liquid engine specific impulse can be 300-320s, and multiple on-off can also be achieved)