China Invaded

R

Red Guard

Junior Member
i couldn't agree with you, schumacher. from my point of view, the foreigners always misunderstand chinese culture and chinese dynasties. foreigners intend to think that the manchurians are most likly, a....different nation from china, so when they rule china, they are like other races to rule chinese. but chinese don't really think so. the failure of mongolians was because they did not adopt chinese culture, that's why they ended up in 86 years. but after several decades in the midland, manchurian were basicly changed to midland chinese. at the end of the dynasty, manchurians are chinese, chinese are manchurians. besides, manchuria was part of china before that as well. it's a bit complicate for foreigners to understand this kind of chinese rule....

to renmin:
in 1949, chairman mao led us to glory and taught us not to fear white people, they are nothing superior than us. but after he died, the rest cowards officals tell us that the white people is everythign, they are so good, so advanced, too advanced for us, so we have to beg for their knowledge and "advanced culture", so our chinese could be civilized. just bunch of traitors and fake communists. that's why today, when i go back to china, they see my face and do not give me a smiling face, after i show my passport, they all of sudden change face and smiling at me and this and that, just all because i do not hold a chinese passport. chinese do not get a better right in china, that is what i am talking about.
 
renmin

renmin

Junior Member
originally posted by red gaurd
to renmin:
in 1949, chairman mao led us to glory and taught us not to fear white people, they are nothing superior than us. but after he died, the rest cowards officals tell us that the white people is everythign, they are so good, so advanced, too advanced for us, so we have to beg for their knowledge and "advanced culture", so our chinese could be civilized. just bunch of traitors and fake communists. that's why today, when i go back to china, they see my face and do not give me a smiling face, after i show my passport, they all of sudden change face and smiling at me and this and that, just all because i do not hold a chinese passport. chinese do not get a better right in china, that is what i am talking about.[/QUOTE]

i see. Yes part of Mao's speach during founding o the PRC, he said PRC's people have stood up meaning they are now strong and ready for anything. well for right now, I doubt the Chinese still really fear the white. well back on topic, like I said the opeim war was to weaken the Chinese with drugs make them lazy and tired every day, then come in and take them out. you can see that china was often picked on in the past.
 
renmin

renmin

Junior Member
woll vincelee. whatch the language. what are you talking about? present or past? calm down.

the other countries joined in because China started to refuse to continue purchasing opium from britain.
 
R

Red Guard

Junior Member
opium war started because of chinese policies of con british. but the other countries joined in mostly because of their embassies were burned down and civilians got killed. but, mostly, those are excuses, they all wanted to grab a plate and feast on china. after 1949, the only land wasn't given back were from the russians.....(not counting macao and hongkang, that is)
 
W

WEN?

New Member
was that land not given back by any chance the modern day Mongolia? i was told that russia took it from us and maybe it was during the opium war. i also think what adeptitus and red gaurd were talking about is what i was asking about. why did china burn down the other countries embassyes?
 
A

Aerodriver

New Member
FIRT SORRY ABOUT THIS LONG POST
As a westerner currently living in China, I am still amazed by the self-centred hatred some, luckily a small minority, of people harbour to the past injustices that the "west" imposed on China. Yes it’s important to look back at history and not forget the past. For example I'm British did you know that concentration camps were not invented by the Germans for us against the Jews? They were invented by the British for use against the Boar in the Boar wars in South Africa in the 1900's. What some people in China need to remember is every country has done bad things in the past and it is not something to be ashamed of, look at them as something you can learn from. I always have to have conversations with Chinese people about the opium wars and how bad Britain was, yet no Chinese person will talk about when the Chinese invaded Vietnam in the 1970's or when it sent troops to fight against a multi-national force under United Nation's command in Korea and I could probably make a list of other shameful things, just as I could make a list of Shameful British or western history. So come on guys, it’s a new century, don't talk about Chinese people thinking westerners are superior because it’s simply not true and any of this anti-western hatred seems to come from uneducated Chinese with small social circles who have never seen the world. China and it's people are great, just as I think Britain and its people are great, but we are both far from perfect AND remember there is always two sides to every story.........including the opium wars and the burning of the summer palace etc.

And I quote from RENMIN “like I said the opium war was to weaken the Chinese with drugs make them lazy and tired every day, then come in and take them out.â€
Sorry but I have never heard so much Crap in my life. The war was simply about money and trade, not so we could weaken you to invade, most of the contact between China and the west between 1700-1900 was about trade. Due to the Cohong that the Chinese emperor set up (to basically make money for the emperor) there was quickly a large imbalance of trade. The British through the east India company sent James Flint, a Chinese speaking trader (note the Chinese government of the time had band traders from learning Chinese so the government could control trade and change tariffs) to complain about restrictions in incoming trade and corruption in the Cohong. He was imprisoned for presenting petitions from Chinese nationals who wanted to trade freely, learning Chinese and sailing to a port in northern China. The British then sent another representative, Lord Macartney to try set up permanent diplomatic relations in Beijing and allow fixed tariffs and more inward trade. He was refused.
Due to the now large trade imbalance, we British loved our tea, Britain through the East India Company sold large amounts of Opium to CHINESE traders (although licensed by Britain) in INDIA, who then shipped it to Chinese smugglers in S.China.
In 1838 A Chinese official , Lin Zexu, was sent by the emperor to India to ask the British to stop the trade, also in this time a letter was sent to Queen Victoria asking her to stop the trade, the letter was ignored by Britain. During negotiations, partly because he was not taken seriously he took 350 foreigners hostage, including the British Superintendent of the area ( Charles Elliot)- which as you could imagine somewhat angered the British. Anyway it was agreed that all opium trade was to be stopped and the hostages released. Which would have been a good end to the whole process. However in 1839 the Qing Dynasty ordered all British to leave Guangzhou (the only treaty/trading port in china for foreigners) and terminated trade between China and Britain. Britain then sent forces, and only British forces were involved at this time, to force the Chinese government to resume trade. The out come of this conflict was equal relations between Britain and china; four more ports open to foreign trade, abolition of the Cohong and unfair import tariffs and the surrender of HK in perpetuity.- I'm not saying that is fair, but it is truth.
 
K

KYli

Brigadier
Aerodriver said:
FIRT SORRY ABOUT THIS LONG POST
As a westerner currently living in China, I am still amazed by the self-centred hatred some, luckily a small minority, of people harbour to the past injustices that the "west" imposed on China. Yes it’s important to look back at history and not forget the past. For example I'm British did you know that concentration camps were not invented by the Germans for us against the Jews? They were invented by the British for use against the Boar in the Boar wars in South Africa in the 1900's. What some people in China need to remember is every country has done bad things in the past and it is not something to be ashamed of, look at them as something you can learn from. I always have to have conversations with Chinese people about the opium wars and how bad Britain was, yet no Chinese person will talk about when the Chinese invaded Vietnam in the 1970's or when it sent troops to fight against a multi-national force under United Nation's command in Korea and I could probably make a list of other shameful things, just as I could make a list of Shameful British or western history. So come on guys, it’s a new century, don't talk about Chinese people thinking westerners are superior because it’s simply not true and any of this anti-western hatred seems to come from uneducated Chinese with small social circles who have never seen the world. China and it's people are great, just as I think Britain and its people are great, but we are both far from perfect AND remember there is always two sides to every story.........including the opium wars and the burning of the summer palace etc.

And I quote from RENMIN “like I said the opium war was to weaken the Chinese with drugs make them lazy and tired every day, then come in and take them out.â€
Sorry but I have never heard so much Crap in my life. The war was simply about money and trade, not so we could weaken you to invade, most of the contact between China and the west between 1700-1900 was about trade. Due to the Cohong that the Chinese emperor set up (to basically make money for the emperor) there was quickly a large imbalance of trade. The British through the east India company sent James Flint, a Chinese speaking trader (note the Chinese government of the time had band traders from learning Chinese so the government could control trade and change tariffs) to complain about restrictions in incoming trade and corruption in the Cohong. He was imprisoned for presenting petitions from Chinese nationals who wanted to trade freely, learning Chinese and sailing to a port in northern China. The British then sent another representative, Lord Macartney to try set up permanent diplomatic relations in Beijing and allow fixed tariffs and more inward trade. He was refused.
Due to the now large trade imbalance, we British loved our tea, Britain through the East India Company sold large amounts of Opium to CHINESE traders (although licensed by Britain) in INDIA, who then shipped it to Chinese smugglers in S.China.
In 1838 A Chinese official , Lin Zexu, was sent by the emperor to India to ask the British to stop the trade, also in this time a letter was sent to Queen Victoria asking her to stop the trade, the letter was ignored by Britain. During negotiations, partly because he was not taken seriously he took 350 foreigners hostage, including the British Superintendent of the area ( Charles Elliot)- which as you could imagine somewhat angered the British. Anyway it was agreed that all opium trade was to be stopped and the hostages released. Which would have been a good end to the whole process. However in 1839 the Qing Dynasty ordered all British to leave Guangzhou (the only treaty/trading port in china for foreigners) and terminated trade between China and Britain. Britain then sent forces, and only British forces were involved at this time, to force the Chinese government to resume trade. The out come of this conflict was equal relations between Britain and china; four more ports open to foreign trade, abolition of the Cohong and unfair import tariffs and the surrender of HK in perpetuity.- I'm not saying that is fair, but it is truth.
Click to expand...
As much as I agree the opium war was history, but I do think chinese need to learn and know about it. The West has been powerful for centurys, so it may think forgot and forgive is very easy. But as the people who suffer, I think they are much more difficult to do it. Ask the Blacks of African, Indian of America and the Asian all suffer great deal from the hand of western imperialist, it takes more than time to heal the wounds. So when the conflicts began in these region, the western media will always got no clues why leaders who they consider evil got the support of people.
Also what you said about the opium war not fully correct, the war is not only about trade. It is also about imperialism and want to conquer China, but since China is so big and there were so many countries. They tried to weaken the Chinese, so each fo them can take a piece of China. Secondly, the first Opium war begin when the british seamen who was kick out by chinese killed a chinese at kowloon. When Lin asked them to hand over to try at chinese court they refused, Elliot did tried the seamen at the british jurisdiction, but all found not guilty. Lin was not satify, so he end all trade with british. Cut off all food and water and ask portugal to kick out the british at macao, the british went to hong kong stay there until the british send in their navy. And there were also second opium war which opium become legal, but this time lead by both french and britain. the Boxer rebellion which was the war that when eigtht countries invade china at 1900.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
There was nothing shameful about China's invasion of Vietnam. It's purpose was to teach the Vietnamese and the Soviets a lesson, and it succeeded, showing the Vietnamese that the Soviets could not help them if China got serious in invading them. The Chinese only sent second tier troops, keeping their elite forces in the northern borders facing Russia, and these troops suffered immense casualties. Yet they took over their objectives and showed to the Vietnamese that unlike the Americans, the Chinese are not afraid to take casualties. And the Chinese, once objectives were attained, withdrew. The invasion itself was encouraged by China's Western partners at that time, such as the US, for the obvious Cold War reasons. And the strategic effects proved more longer lasting than the Vietnam War because it signaled the fatal breakup of Communist hegemony in Southeast Asia.

Neither is the intervention in Korea a campaign of conquest. China warned the UN they would intervene is the UN brought the conflict too close to Chinese borders. MacArthur ignored these warnings, and China made true to its word. It is not a war of conquest, but of intervention to help a fellow Communist nation.

These are not wars of imperialism, out to enslave people, force people to take drugs, and exploit their natural resources.

What I would regard as shameful would be China's support of that genocidal Pol Pot and his murderous Khmer Rouge regime. But that is beside the point.

As a trivial note, there is a side effect with regards to the Opium Wars and the burning of the Summer Palace. British looters brought back to Britain some cute pet dogs they looted from the Palace. Thus the Pekingese was introduced to the world, and much of the current population of Pekingese descended from these dogs.
 
A

Aerodriver

New Member
I think in the modern day, invading any country "to teach them a lesson" is very shameful. Do you not think every government should be afraid of taking casualties in war, because surely the whole purpose of a government to protect the people and given then a better life. There is nothing macho about sending poorly equipped troops into battle just so they can show the world you can take casualties and teach another country outside your borders a lesson. Should that country not be free to choose its allies, even if it does not agree with the bigger neighbours thoughts? Sounds like what you’re saying is send the troops in, get people killed, don’t care about the local civilians afterwards and then leave- sounds a little like us brits 150 years ago.
The reason why the local people support dictators is not because of some imperialist past, or maybe it is as this is personal opinion, but I would guess its because they have always lived in a state with out free press and there fore believe what they are told to believe about there government.
In my opinion if the imperial powers wanted to cut China up into colonies it would have happened, the population did not on the whole support the emperors and the western powers had more than enough firepower if needed, as for it being a big country so was India.
As for Korea, with out Chinese help and diplomatic pressure the war would not have started in the first place if the north, under Chinese direction did not invade to south. True the American general advanced too far north, but China sent troops because it was already too heavily involved in a conflict that is was mostly to blame for starting- not because it wanted to keep it word.
Also I really enjoy reading different side’s history of an event/war so please don't attack my words, just giving you the other side to the story- as what I have read on the causes of the first opium war, is in UK text books so is probably biased to UK side of things just as some text books in China are biased to Chinese side of things.
Nice quirky fact about the dogs, I visited the summer palace last week but its in repair at the moment in many places so kinda spoilt my visit. I'll go again when it’s finished.
As a final thought- EVERY country, including China and the UK need to learn from its history, other wise we will just make the same mistakes and with todays weapons……………………….
 
A

Aerodriver

New Member
As a final point Quoting "Ask the Blacks of African, Indian of America and the Asian all suffer great deal from the hand of western imperialist, it takes more than time to heal the wounds." Why not ask the Scottish in Scotland about Englands past against Scotland. Equally as bad as Africa but they dont wollow in self pity or hate, - well ok some do. But do you not think China, the Han majority, also, on a smaller scale has an imperialist past, just think of Tibet?
 
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