China Flanker Thread III (land based, exclude J-15)

lcloo

Captain
I don't know if PLAAF is satisfied with flanker's range, but I should point out that an F-15E with CFT and 3 drop tanks can carry more than 15 tons fuel!
They don't carry that much fuel tanks in actual combat missions. And don't forget they have to do ferrying from US continent across the Atlantic to Europe. Thus carry maximum fuel is normally unrelated to combat missions but for transfer from US to other US air bases around the World.

They do have long range bombing missions before, like deployment from bases in UK to strike targets in Middle East or North Africa that need external fuel tanks. But using external fuel tanks they carried less bombs.

China has no such need.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't know if PLAAF is satisfied with flanker's range, but I should point out that an F-15E with CFT and 3 drop tanks can carry more than 15 tons fuel!

And that's for point-to-point ferrying flights (i.e. without any weapons loadout) across vast distances. Trying to do that with actual combat loadouts, and that's going to eat a hefty lot into the combat performance of the fighter.

It'd be like trying to hook and connect a small fuel tank trailer to a sports car. Yes, you get a much higher driving range - But you ain't gonna go very fast.

Besides, the Su-35 with two external fuel tanks can actually fly farther than the F-15E in the aforementioned configuration (4500 kilometers versus 3900 kilometers).
 

PersianPrince

New Member
Registered Member
And that's for point-to-point ferrying flights (i.e. without any weapons loadout) across vast distances. Trying to do that with actual combat loadouts, and that's going to eat a hefty lot into the combat performance of the fighter.

It'd be like trying to hook and connect a small fuel tank trailer to a sports car. Yes, you get a much higher driving range - But you ain't gonna go very fast.

Besides, the Su-35 with two external fuel tanks can actually fly farther than the F-15E in the aforementioned configuration (4500 kilometers versus 3900 kilometers).
1000015387.pngNo. F-15 has carried 2 tanks (more than 13 tons fuel) in actual operations and apparently it can carry a third instead of the GBU-10. I won't discuss F-15 any more since this is flanker thread.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Registered Member
No. F-15 has carried 2 tanks (more than 13 tons fuel) in actual operations and apparently it can carry a third instead of the GBU-10. I won't discuss F-15 any more since this is flanker thread.

Yes.

Not just because this is a Sino Flanker thread, but also:
- This particular F-15E loadout has two drop tanks, NOT three drop tanks plus CFTs as per your description in a previous post.
- Did you somehow disregard what the above F-15E's most likely missions are, based on the loadout shown? And the required mission parameters for carrying such loadouts? Only two SRAAMs and two MRAAMs, but six guided bombs of different sizes.
- Also, notice the "n.a."? 7 of the weapon racks are empty. Ever wondered why?

Kindly do ponder about them. Now let's get back on topic.
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
A few thoughts:

The Flanker as explained already has a fuel capacity well above all other similar fighters and as such a range more than enough. Everything else makes no sens e and brings other issues not worth the mess.

That was true of Su-27 developed in 1970s as part of a triad of fighters:
  • long range interceptor for air defense force - MiG-31
  • long range air superiority fighter for air force and air defense force - Su-27
  • short range air superiority fighter for air force - MiG-29
All these aircraft had their combat ranges, response times and mission profiles defined based on the requirements of the entire Soviet air defense system.

More importantly that was 43 years ago - before active radar homing, AESA radars, sensor fusion, advancements in compuring, networking etc. Flanker design is as obsolete today as Me-262 would be in the 1980s.

The life of the platform can be extended due to advancements in technology but other limitations apply. That's the reason why PLAAF still orders J-16 which is a F-15E equivalent, and not J-11 which is a F-15C equivalent.

Soviet planners intended for Su-27IB, later developed into Su-34, to replace Su-24. Flankers were never meant to be multirole fighters with performance optimised for low altitude penetration like F-15E. Hi-lo-hi and lo-lo-lo missions are where drop tanks prove invaluable. For long duration CAP aerial refueling is preferable - more fuel, less structural stress. For high intensity air superiority contest in the 1980s you're just as often out of missiles faster than you are out of fuel.

The maximum loadout of a Su-27 was under 2t. And because of that Flanker was designed using a very unique and innovative aerodynamic design which only in retrospect proved to be a dead end. Nobody designs aircraft like that anymore because advances in computation made it possible to optimise traditional and more robust designs. Flanker was the Strv103 of fighter planes.

And then came AMRAAM and everything changed.Interesting that F-15 survived past 2000 mostly due to bomber F-15E rather than fighter F-15C which got mostly replaced by F-16.

In comparison F-15 uses a very similar design to MiG-31. It has high cantilevered wing with twin engines fixed together and all hardpoints under or near the body while the wing is mostly clear. Such design can power through greater drag and can handle asymmetry in mass distribution better than Flankers because the center of mass doesn't change as much. Both F-22 and F-35 follow that design principle. J-20 is also closer to Eagle than Flanker.

China copied Flankers because it needed to build up modern air force quickly but for some reason they chose a more traditional design for their next gen, as well as kept building the technically inferior J-10 - likely to develop practical knowledge of other designs, among other reasons. That's because when the Flanker shock happened it didn't happen because Flankers were pulling Pugachev's cobras against PLAAF in J-7s and J-8s. It was a shock where a 3rd gen light fighter force was confronted with a 4th gen air superiority fighters and was outranged and outgunned. It was a Dreadnought moment rather than "oh shit, his kung fu is better than my kung fu" moment.

Sukhoi got stuck with Flanker design when it was deprived of funding through the 1990s so they oversold it for PAK-FA which is one of the reasons why the delays happened. They needed time for design work that they claimed to have done already.

And this is why Flankers will never get external fuel tanks.

As far as I can tell only the centerline position can work for a drop tank in Flankers and one drop tank doesn't change much in terms of range while it still necessitates a redesign and a rebuild, as well as limits the lift that Flanker's airframe generates between the engines.
There's also the issue of balancing the entire plane, as Flanker is a statically unstable design e.g. "leaning forward" while on the ground.
Adding concentrated 1,5-2t of mass to such plane is not easy. Balancing it symmetrically is even harder.

That's why Russia builds Su-34 in large numbers. Fullbacks were designed for carrying up to three large drop tanks on standard missions while Flankers were designed for zero.

For China it probably won't be necessary because the best solution for improving J-16 would be introducing a loyal wingman drone for carrying munitions and later for serving as frontline aerial refueler. As for J-11 they should be soon relegated to secondary and auxiliary roles. J-11B is soon going to be 20 years old and during the Cold War 20 years was a generational leap.

It's a 40+ year design with 20+ year service history. It's time for retirement and quality time with your grandkids, not for plastic surgery, viagra and a barely legal trophy wife. When you need the latter you know you messed up.

J-11s will have enough "grandkids". Let's let them go in peace.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
As far as I can tell only the centerline position can work for a drop tank in Flankers and one drop tank doesn't change much in terms of range while it still necessitates a redesign and a rebuild, as well as limits the lift that Flanker's airframe generates between the engines.
There's also the issue of balancing the entire plane, as Flanker is a statically unstable design e.g. "leaning forward" while on the ground.
Adding concentrated 1,5-2t of mass to such plane is not easy. Balancing it symmetrically is even harder.

That's why Russia builds Su-34 in large numbers. Fullbacks were designed for carrying up to three large drop tanks on standard missions while Flankers were designed for zero.

For China it probably won't be necessary because the best solution for improving J-16 would be introducing a loyal wingman drone for carrying munitions and later for serving as frontline aerial refueler. As for J-11 they should be soon relegated to secondary and auxiliary roles. J-11B is soon going to be 20 years old and during the Cold War 20 years was a generational leap.

It's a 40+ year design with 20+ year service history. It's time for retirement and quality time with your grandkids, not for plastic surgery, viagra and a barely legal trophy wife. When you need the latter you know you messed up.

J-11s will have enough "grandkids". Let's let them go in peace.

Which means that the IAF's attempt to fit a Brahmos missile on their Su-30MKI's centerline position isn't just exactly a non-ideal move, but also potentially/actually detrimental to the performance of their Flankers?

1920px-Su-30MKI_aircraft_in_flight_armed_with_an_air_launched_BrahMos_supersonic_air_to_surfac...jpg

Damn. And I thought that the huge, empty space in between the engine cowlings and underneath the fuselage is actually the perfect spot for carrying large-size, heavy-weight anti-air/anti-surface missiles (for China's case, could be a YJ-21 or ULRAAM)...
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Which means that the IAF's attempt to fit a Brahmos missile on their Su-30MKI's centerline position isn't just exactly a non-ideal move, but also potentially/actually detrimental to the performance of their Flankers?

The detriment to performance is really only significant for air-to-air missions. A drop-tank is an impediment to altitude climbs because you lose energy to put mass at altitude which is then used only to maintain mass at altitude. There's a calculus of mass/energy etc. that determines why heavy fighters typically carry no fewer than 2 drop tanks while light fighters usually go with 1. Ideally the amount of mass you bring to altitude is zero so if you have to carry something it better be deadly, and drop tanks are literally "drop tanks" and not "shoot tanks". For Flankers there's an additional impediment due to their aerodynamic profile but a loss of performance occurs also in Eurocanards. Eurofighters are beastly when flying clean but only so-so when flying with 3 drop tanks. Which again is why they're called "drop tanks" and not "stay tanks".

However a fighter carrying a 2,5 tonne missile is not on an air-to-air mission, at least not in 2020s. Most likely it is going to be a hi-hi-hi or hi-lo-hi attack profile, and BrahMos being supersonic with 500km range doesn't require the launching aircraft to be in proximity of target like F-15E on a interdiction run with bombs. In such circumstances it doesn't need all of its performance.

Until the Rafale deal - which happened due to 2014 sanctions and the failure of FGFA - Su-30MKI was the only IAF aircraft capable of performing the entire mission - including identifying the target - on its own while delivering payload of this class. SCALP may be superior in many aspects to BrahMos but it has to be imported.

Damn. And I thought that the huge, empty space in between the engine cowlings and underneath the fuselage is actually the perfect spot for carrying large-size, heavy-weight anti-air/anti-surface missiles (for China's case, could be a YJ-21 or ULRAAM)...

Every missile has a mission which defines its optimal parameters. Anti-ship Ballistic Missiles are air-launched for additional range but they also need range to be safe until apogee when their kinetic energy is lowest.

Viable AShBMs will likely be too large for Flankers. It's just a hunch but I think they're not going to be carried by anything smaller than H-6 in MTOW/lift terms. A viable AShBM ideally should be deployable far beyond a 1500km radius, let alone a fraction of it which is what the radius of a J-16 with an AShBM is going to be.

As for ULRAAMs we're very far away from the point in time when missiles launched by Flankers at hundred's of kms can't be countered by stealthy aircraft attacking launching fighters from closer ranges. Flankers are huge and very much not stealthy. They are poor air-to-air assets in peer contest because peer contest is going to be a full-spectrum contest. There is a lot of tunnel vision in most of the talks about AWACS or tanker killers because as everyone laser-focuses on that issue alone, they forget that it's an entire air force fighting an entire air force. Shooting AWACS or tankers is not going to magically disappear enemy air power. It will only force it to stay at a certain distance to protect those enabling assets aka "multipliers". Once that distance is crossed the enabling assets can be attacked with success however it also means that the enemy is also within range of many of its inteded targets. For every ULRAAM launched at a enabler there will likely be a missile launched at a ULRAAM carrier. Probability of kill is more dependent on launch range than maximum range so those shooting farther have lower Pk.

This strategy of shooting at tankers and aew is a temporary deterrence, not a permanent solution.

So the kind of "ULRAAM" that a J-16 is likely to carry is not so much a Wunderwaffe that only a Flanker can carry but a missile that is viable for J-16 because of its huge RCS. The logic is as follows: a J-20 can do with medium range missiles where a Flanker needs very long range missiles.

If at any point ULRAAMs with extreme ranges become viable it's better to launch them using bombers, ideally VLO bombers.

Let's end it here. If anyone has questions I do answer constructive PMs. Off-topics are Orc-work. Oh wait... wrong avatar.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Normal multirole flanker airframe - which probably includes J-16 - is limited to 1.5t single payload centerline max(you can find photos with KAB-1500 here and there).

Reinforced frames are known to carry either single 2.5s (brahmos, reinforced Su-30MKI; 3x lighter, 1.5t class brahmos-A in the future) or 3x1500s(Su-35, KAB-1500).

Fullback is a bit of a mystery, since its actual full load was never published, and is suspected to be >12t with 5(not 3) heavy-duty pylons. They're now dropping at least 3.5t heavy single FAB-3000 UMPK loads, which wasn't deemed possible even a year ago.
Probably this versatility, as @MarKoz81 rightfully notes, is the reason VKS is so committed to the overall rather outdated platform.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Normal multirole flanker airframe - which probably includes J-16 - is limited to 1.5t single payload centerline max(you can find photos with KAB-1500 here and there).

Reinforced frames are known to carry either single 2.5s (brahmos, reinforced Su-30MKI; 3x lighter, 1.5t class brahmos-A in the future) or 3x1500s(Su-35, KAB-1500).

Fullback is a bit of a mystery, since its actual full load was never published, and is suspected to be >12t with 5(not 3) heavy-duty pylons. They're now dropping at least 3.5t heavy single FAB-3000 UMPK loads, which wasn't deemed possible even a year ago.
Probably this versatility, as @MarKoz81 rightfully notes, is the reason VKS is so committed to the overall rather outdated platform.


Not wanting to further discuss Russian Flankers here, but are you sure, the FAB-3000 UMPK were dropped from Su-34? I wasn't able to find any image.
 
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