China Flanker Thread II

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ougoah

Brigadier
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According to Yankeesama J-10A defeated the Gripen pretty thoroughly in WVR and BVR engagements in 2017. I assume that J-10B/C will have a greater advantage.

Oldest variant of J-10 being able to defeat Gripen in BVR is impressive without knowing the finer details but PLAAF also aims to match USAF, the BVR specialist, so maybe it's not that surprising. Again the finer details of the exercise matter.

WVR, pilot skills factor in quite a lot more. So in an even playing field just between individual or small, equal numbers of fighters, it'll be far more down to the pilot. Over time, I've grown to appreciate why RAF Typhoon pilots have said that no self respecting pilot aims to fight WVR despite Typhoon being one of the best WVR fighters. PLAAF should continue to focus on the BVR fight. J-20 going gunless sort of points towards PLAAF thinking and working towards BVR being where the battle is fought and won/lost.
 

pkj

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Seem to be the core lessons-learned, from PLAAF perspective, from the 2015 China-Thai exercise.

Would someone be able to translate?

(Apology if this is the wrong way to ask for members' help)
 

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Brumby

Major
PLAAF J-11 beat RTAF Gripen 16-0 on first day of Falcon Strike 2015

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Translation of the five slides (different source).

Slide 1: Effective attack tally count
Date Topic Successful attack count: Chinese Thai
Nov 17 Basic combat maneuvers 16 / 0
Nov 18 Basic combat maneuvers 9 / 1
Nov 19 Preparations
Nov 20 2 x 2 combat 3 / 19
Nov 23 Joint air defence 1 / 9
Nov 24 Joint air defence 2 / 9
Nov 25 Joint air defence 3 / 4


Slide 3: Notes from joint air defence
1. Pilots judgment of threats were not comprehensive enough, paid more attention to the direct/forward threat, did not pay attention to threats from the side.
2. Coordination between attack aircraft and sweep aircraft was not with sufficient understanding, aircraft lost awareness, lost control over battlefield awareness.
3. Insufficient pilot's in depth research into avoiding missiles, missile avoidance success was due machine, was not accurate enough in judging method effectiveness of avoiding missiles with different ranges.

Slide 4: Joint air defence combat
1. When the Chinese defended and thais attacked, the Chinese had difficulty identifying the sweep aircraft as threats, had difficulty deciding counter strategy, in most circumstances, shot down by the sweep aircraft.
2. When the Chinese attacked and Thais defended, the Chinese were effective in terms of direction of attack, but had difficulty breaching the Thai line of defence, when the Thais attacked the sweep aircraft, the attack aircraft had difficulty getting a shot opportunity.
3. During mixed combat, defence effectiveness was weak. Had difficulty to make the sweep aircraft into a threat, attack aircraft could, under protection of Gripens, able to fight at low altitudes

Slide 5: Notes from 2v2 combat
1. Insufficient judgment against threats
2. Insufficient avoidance action
3. Fire control and weapons system performance vis Thai was generationally weaker
4. Had limited battlefield awareness
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
With the two examples we are given, then the results between J-10b flown by PLAAF vs Gripen C flown by RTAF would be in J-10b's favour WVR but BVR is a mystery. WVR goes to J-10b because J-10b defeats J-11A WVR and J-11A defeated Gripen C WVR. Although this depends on which pilots the respective airforces selected to do the training and other important details not mentioned.

BVR is too hard to speculate on with J-10B, which seems to fairly evenly match Gripen C given the very limited information available. J-10C with AESA and PL-15 seems to dominate Gripen C. Gripen E with AESA and Meteor is another issue.

PLAAF pilots beating Thai Gripens WVR with heavier and larger fighters is surprising. But then J-11A probably has equal or better thrust to weight than modern flankers fattened up by more electronics. Kind of like how the earliest F-16s were pure dogfighters and really dominated WVR. J-11A pilots would probably also be more experienced. Also the flanker does have exceptional kinematic performance within certain flight envelopes.

I cannot see how

J-11A radar

NIIP-N001-Radar-01S.jpg


... is going to weigh less than J-11B's radar.

images (4).jpeg
 

sequ

Major
Registered Member
The J-11A/Su-27SK sent to the exercise have still the old twist casegrain antenna and the original Su-27 cokcpit with one monochrome display and maybe an add-on colordisplay for an indiginous navigation system. THe J-10A and J-11B field much better avionics with a slottedplanar array antenna and 'glass cockpit' with highly integrated nav/fcs system at least on par with the western systems fielded in similar aircraft as the gripen. The J-10A and JAS-39C are direct competitors with somewhat equivalent electronics and capabilities.
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
With the two examples we are given, then the results between J-10b flown by PLAAF vs Gripen C flown by RTAF would be in J-10b's favour WVR but BVR is a mystery. WVR goes to J-10b because J-10b defeats J-11A WVR and J-11A defeated Gripen C WVR. Although this depends on which pilots the respective airforces selected to do the training and other important details not mentioned.

BVR is too hard to speculate on with J-10B, which seems to fairly evenly match Gripen C given the very limited information available. J-10C with AESA and PL-15 seems to dominate Gripen C. Gripen E with AESA and Meteor is another issue.

PLAAF pilots beating Thai Gripens WVR with heavier and larger fighters is surprising. But then J-11A probably has equal or better thrust to weight than modern flankers fattened up by more electronics. Kind of like how the earliest F-16s were pure dogfighters and really dominated WVR. J-11A pilots would probably also be more experienced. Also the flanker does have exceptional kinematic performance within certain flight envelopes.
The j-11a is SAC assembled su-27sk with original Russian imported parts
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The J-11A/Su-27SK sent to the exercise have still the old twist casegrain antenna and the original Su-27 cokcpit with one monochrome display and maybe an add-on colordisplay for an indiginous navigation system. THe J-10A and J-11B field much better avionics with a slottedplanar array antenna and 'glass cockpit' with highly integrated nav/fcs system at least on par with the western systems fielded in similar aircraft as the gripen. The J-10A and JAS-39C are direct competitors with somewhat equivalent electronics and capabilities.

I'd say J-10B would be around Gripen C's level of avionics. Definitely not J-10A.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Fair point on the radar but I assumed there are a host of other instruments that just fatten up the fighter like modernised F-18s, F-15s, and F-16s have compared to their first variants. Perhaps this pattern does not apply to Chinese fighters but I doubt it. Maybe it's all offset.

Modern electronics tend to get more powerful for their weight. Think of PCs long time ago versus PCs now. Or better yet, think of laptops in the 90s versus laptops today. The more modern electronics get, the less heat they generate, which means less cooling is needed, and the less power they need, which means less literal iron, as in power supply. Replacing things like CRTs to LEDs or LCDs, help reduce weight.

Growth of weight in modern fighters comes from something else. One is the increasing multirole they require, which means more heavier loads. This means strengthening the airframe. The other is that customers --- every modern fighter is still a product ---- want the most life they can get out of their very expensive investment. They don't want a fighter with a shorter air frame life they need to get rid in less than 10 years. They want it to last much longer. This means you want a stronger air frame to last. Su-27 Flanker was first designed and made in the more disposable and expendable standards of the Soviet Union. Post Cold War, you are selling Flankers as an export item, and you begin to frame it in a more Westernized Capitalistic context, that your customers want their expensive toys, I mean, planes to last. At the same time China too, changed the context of asset longevity in the military to a more Western one. So these air frames are re-engineered for a longer service life between overhauls.
 
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