Hi AB that’s a very detailed and informatic answer from your side
Thank you
China Flanker Thread II
- Thread starter sumdud
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Thank you
Does anyone here knows the story of how the J-11B came to being. The Russian sold China a licence to produce the SU-27SK (J-11) at SAC. I would presume that there were Russian engineers present in Shenyang to over see the production process. So how was China able to build that unlicensed version under their noses ?
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Incorrect batch 01 used Russian engines
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Su-27SK and UBK
Su-30MKK and MK2
J-11 and J-11A and J-11D (prototypes)
J-11B and J-11BS
J-15 and J-15T (testbed)
J-16
J-16D and J-15D aka J-17 (EW-variants)
... did I miss one??
Are we not counting J15B
17 variants in total
No license. Russia wanted China to be dependent on Russia for perpetuity. But self sufficiency is golden to the Chinese, and there is always a sense of mistrust towards the Russians. J-11B is completely reverse engineered from a manufacturing and technology standpoint. Russia certainly didn't like what China did and stopped all shipments of AL-31F for the Sino-Flankers but not AL-31FN for the J-10s. So China used up all the spare Russian engines in inventory for one batch of J-11B, and then moved to WS-10A or B to the rest. Some Russian engines were used for the early J-15s and so on. Even overhaul of the planes and their engines were supposedly meant to be sent back to Russia, but China managed to figure this out so they can do it on their own. Things like spare parts and engine lubricants also had to be sourced from Russia, those things eventually had to be reverse engineered. It also helps when you can employ Russians, Ukrainians and other people from former Soviet republics.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
If you followed the earliest developments, the Chinese side always stated publically that their aim was to raise indigenous content in the J11 through each batch, eventually reaching 100%.
The Russians didn’t have a problem with that to start with, since they vastly underestimated Chinese capabilities and never expected China to actually achieve that in a relevant timeline.
The idea was that they would use Chinese licence money to develop more advanced versions of the Flanker, such that by the time China has mastered making the last model themselves, it would already be obselete so China would need to licence the latest version and the cycle would continue forever.
It seems almost certain that the Russians tried the same over-promise and under-deliver BS with China as they did with India.
But unlike India, China didn’t have to just lump it, and cancelled the remaining ordered kits instead.
The Russians only started getting salty over indigenous content and raised it retrospectively as an issue when their blackmail attempt by cutting off engines failed.
There was a period when the Russian defence industry seemed to be in blind panic at the proespect of China flooding the market with J11s, and potentially killing their golden goose moneymaker. After their engine blackmail failed and J11s started flying with Chinese engines. So a lot of the publicity drive to bad mouth the J11 seems to have been borne out of that fear, and designed to try and dissuade potential buyers from thinking about Chinese built Flankers.
But China has never even hinted that the J11 was for sale; has never advertised it as such, and it seems the Russians claimed right down afterwards when it become clear China had no designs for the J11 beyond their own use.
I am sure the history of what went down was very complicated with a lot of behind the scenes developments and drama.
I look forwards to reading about it in a few decades time, after all that information becomes declassified and someone writes a book/makes a documentary about it.
But for now, you should not base your opinions of what went down purely on what the Russian defence industry was saying, since there was a lot of blatant fake news being pumped out at the time.
Hi Tam my thoughts are russians never cut off the engine supply line as they been compensated in terms of buying
Su30 series jets beside that they were doing good business with China in terms of supplying them up to now with su35 so I try to differ with your input little bit in terms of discontinuation of engine supply as to some extent you will agree with me russians don’t want to loose Chinese in terms of big power on your side
Tank you
They cut off engine supplies for the J-11 to express their displeasure but their business for the AL-31FN for the J-10s continued.
Of course, the Chinese do good business with the Russians but which Russians? The Chinese always favor KnAAPO, who despite making Flankers, is a separate entity from Sukhoi. In fact KnAAPO and Sukhoi went to blows in court over the money for the Su-30MKK and -30MK2. China wasn't happy about the Su-27UBK being made in Irkutsk, which is where the Su-30MKI was made and is crawling with Indian technicians who can just look over at the same assembly hall at the Chinese planes. But Sukhoi made it that Irkutsk are the ones that make the two seaters while KnAAPO makes the single seaters, sort of their weird idea of fairness. China insisted that the Su-30MKK must be made in KnAAPO and not in Irkutsk, which was Sukhoi's original intention. Irkutsk had even came up with their own proposal for the Su-30MKK. Su-35 is made in KnAAPO, which itself is north of the Chinese border. Its only a short trip for the planes to fly down the border to China, and also convenient for them to fly back for repairs and maintenance.
I wish the image is clearer to be sure but I'm voting targeting pod.
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