China Flanker Thread II

[kurutoga]

So the Flanker won, and that's bad huh??? for the Flanker??? NAW,,, that just ain't right, sounds to me like you are "Flanker Shaming" the Chinese, probably a good thing those SU-35s weren't there??? Huh???

The Flanker is a very, very, talented aircraft, and if the avionics were up to the J-10B, it might have been easier,,, now the Flanker is a very large radar target,, lights up your screen like a barn door, the J-10B is smaller and harder to find visually or on radar? and to some extent its always going to depend on how the exercise is "set up"....

That is a good point! While I was happy for J11B pilots, I was worried the long cycle it took the air force to finally use it effectively. Regardless of the size, cost, and heritage, in a combat it is life and death situation, if J11B is facing a smaller adversary it will be in similar situations.

 

[latenlazy]

That is a good point! While I was happy for J11B pilots, I was worried the long cycle it took the air force to finally use it effectively. Regardless of the size, cost, and heritage, in a combat it is life and death situation, if J11B is facing a smaller adversary it will be in similar situations.

Indeed. I think too many people read too much (or the wrong things) into these combat exercises. The outcomes of these fights can and often do say much more about how pilots are using their hardware more than the quality of the hardware itself. It shouldn’t be surprising if in the future the J-11 and J-10 trade the golden helmet back and forth as the pilots of each plane learn and adapt from the tactics and skills of the other.

 

[Hyperwarp]

Actually J10B has a better radar (PESA) vs. J11B's PD. The same pilot lost to J10 (A or B) in the past, this is the first time he won. So I actually read the story with a bit of despair for Chinese Flankers. They finally figured out how to use J11B this year! On the other hand, J10 being a domestic product, has quicker/shorter iterations, is more mature in avionics, despite being much smaller. If they continue the same rates of improvements I can't see J11's future after a really short time. Maybe 2017 is the peak of Chinese flankers.

We do not know the rules of engagment (RoE) the PLAAF imposed on the J-10 and J-11 pilots. This is the 1st time we see the J-11B use the KL700BECM pod. This may have evened the playing field especially against the J-10B.

The USAF puts all sorts of restriction on F-22 pilots when going up against F-15, F-16 aggresors forcing the Raptor pilots to be creative in bring down their opponents. For one in WVR they have to contend with AIM-9M against AIM-9X + JHMCS of the aggressors and they maybe forced NOT use TVC along with its advanced EW systems. Everytime they use such a system they have points reduced or something like that. During these battles the F-22 in WVR suffer quite a few loses.

So simply put we don't know the RoE PLAAF imposes on their pilots regardless of what fighter they fly in a given scenario.

 

[Quickie]

..... and to some extent its always going to depend on how the exercise is "set up"....

We do not know the rules of engagment (RoE) the PLAAF imposed on the J-10 and J-11 pilots.

........So simply put we don't know the RoE PLAAF imposes on their pilots regardless of what fighter they fly in a given scenario.

Outside of a specific kind of exercise to test out certain capabilities of a fighter type, it simply defeats the purpose of this kind of competition if it's set up in such a way as to favor one side over the other. Any advantage any side may have is probably unintentional on the part of the party who set up the exercise, and is something they wish to avoid in the first place.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Outside of a specific kind of exercise to test out certain capabilities of a fighter type, it simply defeats the purpose of this kind of competition if it's set up in such a way as to favor one side over the other. Any advantage any side may have is probably unintentional on the part of the party who set up the exercise, and is something they wish to avoid in the first place.

Thank you Quickie, and indeed you are right, I was thinking more Red Flag/Green Flag type team exercises, as we don't necessarily have individual competition,, but in China's scenario, you would have to "level the playing field" in order for each pilot to have a fair shot at the "Golden Helmet",,

does anyone know how the Golden Helmet competition is scored, how many days or sorties would be flown,,, I did read that its "single elimination", so that's very helpful information....

 

[Air Force Brat]

We do not know the rules of engagment (RoE) the PLAAF imposed on the J-10 and J-11 pilots. This is the 1st time we see the J-11B use the KL700BECM pod. This may have evened the playing field especially against the J-10B.

The USAF puts all sorts of restriction on F-22 pilots when going up against F-15, F-16 aggresors forcing the Raptor pilots to be creative in bring down their opponents. For one in WVR they have to contend with AIM-9M against AIM-9X + JHMCS of the aggressors and they maybe forced NOT use TVC along with its advanced EW systems. Everytime they use such a system they have points reduced or something like that. During these battles the F-22 in WVR suffer quite a few loses.

So simply put we don't know the RoE PLAAF imposes on their pilots regardless of what fighter they fly in a given scenario.

all good points, with the exception that the Raptor pilots would not be locked out of TVC/OVT, and there is NO penalty for using it, the only penalty would be if you ended up SLO and Dead! LOL

 

[Hyperwarp]

Outside of a specific kind of exercise to test out certain capabilities of a fighter type, it simply defeats the purpose of this kind of competition if it's set up in such a way as to favor one side over the other. Any advantage any side may have is probably unintentional on the part of the party who set up the exercise, and is something they wish to avoid in the first place.

Fair enough. I overlooked that the the Golden Helmet is probably a "Go at each other with everthing you got" scenario. But one thing I noticed is, this is the 1st time we saw the J-11B with KL700B ECM pods. I don't think this was the case in previous Golden Helmet competitions. Maybe this is why the J-11B pilots allegedly had a lot more success than previous years.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Fair enough. I overlooked that the the Golden Helmet is probably a "Go at each other with everthing you got" scenario. But one thing I noticed is, this is the 1st time we saw the J-11B with KL700B ECM pods. I don't think this was the case in previous Golden Helmet competitions. Maybe this is why the J-11B pilots allegedly had a lot more success than previous years.

makes sense, and maybe they are just trying to "level the playing field" by allowing the pod to make up for the J-11B avionics??

 

[defenceman]

Hi can any informed member give me some info about golden helmet competition,is there any restrictions for su30 or any other to compete with j10b/c as I have read most of the time competion between J11B & j10 only
Thank you

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Score of new J 16

J-16