China Flanker Thread II

[Centrist]

well, there really is. I think from the Chinese perspective, they are not violating the agreement, because they have a different view of IP than Russians. They are certainly not exporting J-11B, that was all nonsense made up by the Russians to appear sympathetic.

I do not recall seeing any J-11B's shown at the 60th anniversary, could be wrong there because the commentator probably didn't make a distinction between J-11 and J-11B. But from the Russian point of view, the J-11B is a violation of the contract. Now, it may be a matter of interpretation, and perhaps the Chinese are correct, but my point is that is isn't in their interest to anger the Russians. That is why the J-11B is so mysterious; they are trying to keep it low key because they know the Russian's think it is a violation of their property rights. What is to stop Russia from halting AL-31F/N shipments in retaliation for a plane that they do not want in production?

Seriously, how many high quality photos do we have of the J-10B compared to the J-11B, even though the J-11B is in far greater numbers and has been around since 2006. The J-11B is being kept in the closet by comparison.

 

[FugitiveVisions]

And I suspect a lot of the J-11As are being upgraded to use J-11B avionics + weapons.

Doubt that. For one, what would China do with the thousands of AAMs that she exported for these jets over the years? And it would be a huge hassle to change the logistics at the airbases. Would be a lot simpler just to introduce more units from the ground up.

 

[Centrist]

Doubt that. For one, what would China do with the thousands of AAMs that she exported for these jets over the years? And it would be a huge hassle to change the logistics at the airbases. Would be a lot simpler just to introduce more units from the ground up.

There already is strong evidence that they are in fact upgrading J-11's to J-11B level

 

[HKSDU]

I do not recall seeing any J-11B's shown at the 60th anniversary, could be wrong there because the commentator probably didn't make a distinction between J-11 and J-11B. But from the Russian point of view, the J-11B is a violation of the contract. Now, it may be a matter of interpretation, and perhaps the Chinese are correct, but my point is that is isn't in their interest to anger the Russians. That is why the J-11B is so mysterious; they are trying to keep it low key because they know the Russian's think it is a violation of their property rights. What is to stop Russia from halting AL-31F/N shipments in retaliation for a plane that they do not want in production?

Seriously, how many high quality photos do we have of the J-10B compared to the J-11B, even though the J-11B is in far greater numbers and has been around since 2006. The J-11B is being kept in the closet by comparison.

This is how I simply see it, China in 1998 settled an agreement with Russia to license produce 200 Su-27 under the designation J-11. So far with all the J-11 currently built around ~120-130 they still haven't violated the contract of 200 Flankers, which until they do they are well within they're rights. Once you purchase an airframe, you can modify to your own requirements at most times, the only thing which you cannot do is export it. An example are the F-15 in service with Israel, American plane modified once with Israel.

The logic behind the Russian backlash and anger, is that Russia was hopping to make further sales with another contract of batch of J-11, Su-30 and J-11 upgrade packages which China never accepted. Put together with the declining sales of Chinese arms trade, and some partial physical resemblances in ground vehicles, and strong anti-Chinese haters. You get the Russian media acquiring information from unreliable false information from peoples opinion and then that escalates.

 

[HKSDU]

Doubt that. For one, what would China do with the thousands of AAMs that she exported for these jets over the years? And it would be a huge hassle to change the logistics at the airbases. Would be a lot simpler just to introduce more units from the ground up.

J-11B is Chinese+Russian weapon compatible so no troubles here.

 

[crobato]

Doubt that. For one, what would China do with the thousands of AAMs that she exported for these jets over the years? And it would be a huge hassle to change the logistics at the airbases. Would be a lot simpler just to introduce more units from the ground up.

These AAMs, like all missiles that have a shelf life, will eventually expire. Some of them will eventually be used up with live round training; a yearly quota should be allocated to this.

A lot of these missiles are already old and nearing end of their shelf life if they were bought in the 90s. By the 2010s they should be replaced. Since China isn't going to restock them, it adds incentive to mod J-11As to J-11Bs so they can use newly produced PLs for the J-10 fleet, consolidating logistical resources between the two fleets. Much better if you think about it. Add to the fact is that the J-8F fleet is also using PL-12s.

Surviving Russian missiles that has not expired yet can be consolidated and transferred for use to the MKK fleet.

 

[Quickie]

Once you purchase an airframe, you can modify to your own requirements at most times, the only thing which you cannot do is export it. An example are the F-15 in service with Israel, American plane modified once with Israel.

That applies to anything you buy and own, although it may result in a void in warranty. Basically, you can do whatever you want to do, with the things that you already own. The question now is whether China did actually pay for all the 200 flanker kits.

 

[plawolf]

How quickly people forget it seems.

The Chinese have been saying right from the get go that the goal of the Flanker deal is that China will be reducing the Russian made content with each batch produced with the ultimate goal being a fully indigenously produced plane.

Back then most western reporters relished in pouring scorn on the notion that China would be able to fully produce a flanker without a Russian there holding our hands and telling us witch end of a screwdriver to hold. If the Russians had a problem, why did it take them this long to voice it?

Back in the 90s when the deal was signed, the Russians thought they'd cornered the Chinese market for the next half century, and that it would not matter if the Chinese fully indiginised the Su27SK, as it will take the Chinese so long to do it that the plane will be obsolete when its fully Chinese and the PLAAF would need to buy the next Russian upgrade and that by the time the Chinese mastered that technology, the Russians will have something better and so forth.

What the Russians did not expect was the spend at which China's avionics industry grew to the point where the J11Bs has become a seriously attractive alternative to Russian Flankers, and they are terrified that SAC might put the J11B on the market and rob them of what little market share they have left. So they thought they'd launch a pre-emptive strike and paint the J11B as an illegal knock-off to try and dissuade potential buyers and also to try and use that as a bargaining chip against China by saying, 'what you are doing with the J11B is illegal because we say so, but we are going to be generous and let you do what you want so long as you don't start selling them abroad, now be greatful!'

How the mighty have fallen.

 

[tphuang]

A bunch of J-11B pictures came out as part of this TV program.

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It's in Chinese and contains a bunch of the usual boasting, but it does have some nice parts like the part on J-11B and also Z-8K (I'm totally convinced there are a lot more Z-8Ks than people think). Anyway, here are some of the photos and the final one compares the exhaust of Su-27 against J-11B. I think it looks to be using WS-10A here.

The more meaty stuff are at the end.

 

[kroko]

here are some of the photos and the final one compares the exhaust of Su-27 against J-11B. I think it looks to be using WS-10A here.

they seem different, but the j-11 image is blurred. Cant be sure.