China Flanker Thread II

[Air Force Brat]

PLAAF send obsolete J-11A to participate in the exercise. They never send J-11B.

Plus, I believe, those pilot purposely loses out to Turkish AirForce in those exercise.

Lion, no fighter pilot would never ever never never throw a fight, it ain't in em. They would lose their membership in the fighter pilot hot dog society, and that ain't gonna happen. Two things here, the flanker is a big bird, the F-16 is a turnin burnin little fool. The Turkish guys have had a long and happy relationship with the USAF, not sure where thats at with their new leadership. So, fighter 101, small light agile, has an advantage over large heavy bird when A2A up close and personal, TVC can change that, TVC with canards, good for you. Also, USAF training is the real deal, you could end up "dead" for real playing fighter pilot games, it ain't bingo at the Catholic Church! Its Ok, thats how you get better, flying against the other guy who kicks your butt, is very motivational, the AF philosophy is train harder than you need to, then the real deal is no big deal, (I know it always is). The PLAAF has just recently moved its AF into the real world of Top Gun, and they are learning fast. Also USAF recently lost an F-15 in SEA playin fighter pilot games, it does get "real" ugly.

 

[Lion]

Lion, no fighter pilot would never ever never never throw a fight, it ain't in em. They would lose their membership in the fighter pilot hot dog society, and that ain't gonna happen. Two things here, the flanker is a big bird, the F-16 is a turnin burnin little fool. The Turkish guys have had a long and happy relationship with the USAF, not sure where thats at with their new leadership. So, fighter 101, small light agile, has an advantage over large heavy bird when A2A up close and personal, TVC can change that, TVC with canards, good for you. Also, USAF training is the real deal, you could end up "dead" for real playing fighter pilot games, it ain't bingo at the Catholic Church! Its Ok, thats how you get better, flying against the other guy who kicks your butt, is very motivational, the AF philosophy is train harder than you need to, then the real deal is no big deal, (I know it always is). The PLAAF has just recently moved its AF into the real world of Top Gun, and they are learning fast. Also USAF recently lost an F-15 in SEA playin fighter pilot games, it does get "real" ugly.

What I heard is the PLAAF J-11a, don't even bother to manoevur much and just let their turkish counterpart get the lock and killed.

The score is all PLAAF fighter killed and none of the Turkish counterpart slay.

Just the fighter they send more or less tells you , they are going there not to have the desire to win.

J-11A is the most primitive of all flanker class in PLAAF. Same as Su-27Sk. I believe this mission is more of a friendship/PR and at the same time some info digging of NATO doctrine..

 

[Air Force Brat]

What I heard is the PLAAF J-11a, don't even bother to manoevur much and just let their turkish counterpart get the lock and killed.

The score is all PLAAF fighter killed and none of the Turkish counterpart slay.

Just the fighter they send more or less tells you , they are going there not to have the desire to win.

J-11A is the most primitive of all flanker class in PLAAF. Same as Su-27Sk. I believe this mission is more of a friendship/PR and at the same time some info digging of NATO doctrine..

Flying against old F-16s, no sale on this one my man, kind of my point, "where'd he go? where'd who go?" bingo you're dead! You def need to watch Top Gun again. My first and only A2A flying against a buddy in a Cherokee Arrow, I'll break right, you break left", I never saw him again, He had a low wing, I had a 150 aerobat with a high wing, I broke it off when I couldn't find him. So you've got to stay in contact. A good guy in an Su-27 will whip an average guy in an Su-33 or Su35 given equal weapon systems.

One only has to look at USAF and Navy F-4s in a very superior airplane being shot down by North Vietnamese/Chinese pilots in the inferior Mig 21. F-4 no gun, no dogfight, just launch and loose missles, mig 21 turn and burn baby, great little airplane.IMHO

More importantly don't believe your own propaganda, if you got a problem get some help. Western A2A is all business, all the time, don't get stuck in the Ad filler on forums. Put a USAF guy in those same J-11As park your guy in the F-16s, same story different book, you fight what you brung to the fight, you don't let the other guy sucker you into his game. Now having said that the PLAAF is learning this dog and pony show, their A2A doctrine is evolving at a rapid pace, as Korea and Vietnam taught us, never underestimate your opponent. There are no magic bullets in this business, it only takes a moment to lose focus and your tagged out, just saying, this game is instructive, nobody will win in these matchups.

 

[CottageLV]

Flying against old F-16s, no sale on this one my man, kind of my point, "where'd he go? where'd who go?" bingo you're dead! You def need to watch Top Gun again. My first and only A2A flying against a buddy in a Cherokee Arrow, I'll break right, you break left", I never saw him again, He had a low wing, I had a 150 aerobat with a high wing, I broke it off when I couldn't find him. So you've got to stay in contact. A good guy in an Su-27 will whip an average guy in an Su-33 or Su35 given equal weapon systems.

One only has to look at USAF and Navy F-4s in a very superior airplane being shot down by North Vietnamese/Chinese pilots in the inferior Mig 21. F-4 no gun, no dogfight, just launch and loose missles, mig 21 turn and burn baby, great little airplane.IMHO

More importantly don't believe your own propaganda, if you got a problem get some help. Western A2A is all business, all the time, don't get stuck in the Ad filler on forums. Put a USAF guy in those same J-11As park your guy in the F-16s, same story different book, you fight what you brung to the fight, you don't let the other guy sucker you into his game. Now having said that the PLAAF is learning this dog and pony show, their A2A doctrine is evolving at a rapid pace, as Korea and Vietnam taught us, never underestimate your opponent. There are no magic bullets in this business, it only takes a moment to lose focus and your tagged out, just saying, this game is instructive, nobody will win in these matchups.

If my memory serves me correctly, for all fighter "families"/series, usually the first one is always the most agile. The first model usually leave few liters of space for further avionics upgrades. They are the lightest of the family, hence the most agile (if you don't take upgrading fly-by-wire control system updates into consideration).

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

Anyone heard about the J11 canopy exploding in mid-air? I heard the same thing happened last year on a J10. Is this a quality control problem?

 

[hmmwv]

If my memory serves me correctly, for all fighter "families"/series, usually the first one is always the most agile. The first model usually leave few liters of space for further avionics upgrades. They are the lightest of the family, hence the most agile (if you don't take upgrading fly-by-wire control system updates into consideration).

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

Anyone heard about the J11 canopy exploding in mid-air? I heard the same thing happened last year on a J10. Is this a quality control problem?

In this case the J11B is probably more agile than J11A/27SK due to the slightly more powerful WS10A and weight reduction by utilizing much higher percentage of composite material. Regarding the J11BS exploding canopy I think it's either a QC or design issue, after the J10 incident there were a bunch of essays discussing ways to resolve the issue but they probably haven't cascaded down to all planes.

 

[sinowarrior]

In this case the J11B is probably more agile than J11A/27SK due to the slightly more powerful WS10A and weight reduction by utilizing much higher percentage of composite material. Regarding the J11BS exploding canopy I think it's either a QC or design issue, after the J10 incident there were a bunch of essays discussing ways to resolve the issue but they probably haven't cascaded down to all planes.

Exploding canopy happened on few occasions in the past as well, the air force lost at least one J7 in the earlier 80s due to this problem, Deng was pretty furious about it, and it turned into a fight between the canopy manufacturer and the air force.

 

[Engineer]

In this case the J11B is probably more agile than J11A/27SK due to the slightly more powerful WS10A and weight reduction by utilizing much higher percentage of composite material. Regarding the J11BS exploding canopy I think it's either a QC or design issue, after the J10 incident there were a bunch of essays discussing ways to resolve the issue but they probably haven't cascaded down to all planes.

If certain rumor related to Shengyang's incompetence is true, J-11B would have no advantage weight wise over J-11A.

 

[Franklin]

I was wondering wheter the poor performence of the J-11B against the J-10 has something to do with the Flankers being build by SAC. Are there any data or news about the SU-30MKK's performence against J-10 ?

 

[Lion]

I was wondering wheter the poor performence of the J-11B against the J-10 has something to do with the Flankers being build by SAC. Are there any data or news about the SU-30MKK's performence against J-10 ?

Equally lousy....

 

[Air Force Brat]

I was wondering wheter the poor performence of the J-11B against the J-10 has something to do with the Flankers being build by SAC. Are there any data or news about the SU-30MKK's performence against J-10 ?

Not a thing, apples and oranges, short airplane with canard [J-10], out turns long airplane without canards [J-11], and long airplane with canards and OVT, [J-15] maybe not so much! The shorter lighter aircraft will always out turn the longer heavier aircraft, all other factors being equal, but OVT is a game changer! IMHO

You fight to your strengths and capabilities, you don't let him draw you into his game, elementary my dear Watson!