China Flanker Thread II

[plawolf]

Do I understand this correctly:
In 1962 the Indian army encroached on East Tibet even farther than the Curzon line. China quietly collected a superior force and drove the Indians out of Tibet, then gave up such small parts of Tibet it considered indefensible in order to establish normal relations as soon as possible. Is it that experience that make the Chinese think India is not a serious threat, beside of course that the economic and strategic value of the area concerned is slight?

Your summary left out the somewhat important fact that the PLA was able to easily destroy pretty much India's entire northern armies. They stopped short of going into population centres after sweeping all resistance before them and pulled back to their positions before hostilities broke out. It was not until later, much later, that there was any land swop.

But that is not the main reason China does nof consider India a serious threat since the majority of Chinese know very little of 1962. I only learned of it from western and Indian accounts. The Chinese have long since moved on and all but forgotten about it.

There are many reasons why China does not consider India a threat but to
go into them would be off topic and probably go against the no China v India edict.

 

[franco-russe]

Whatever one may wish to think about India, the four FLANKERs are logically detached from Chengdu MR's J-11 regiment, the 98th of 33rd Fighter Division in Chongqing. Like all J-11 regiments, it has 4 SU-27UBK for training junior pilots and similar duties.

 

[PanAsian]

What is that desk lamp arm/light blue curtain looking thing behind the front seat?

 

[jwangyue]

My guess is that it is a real curtain which can be closed to block the pilot's (trainee's) view of outside, simulating 0 visibility and training pilots on instrument flying/engaging for all weather and day/night capability.

 

[no_name]

That makes sense, the trainee will sit at the front with the curtain pulled and the instructor will watch him and the surroundings from behind.

 

[SinoSoldier]

The mysterious J-19

A mysterious aircraft named the J-19 has been recently discussed. It has been described in many ways, but here are some of the claims:

Huitong mentions in his J-15 post that the J-19 is a carrier-based semi-stealth fighter under development at SAC:

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Huitong also mentions in his J-16 post that the designation "J-19" may be applied to a stealthy version of the J-11.

A post from CJDBY agrees with Huitong's J-16 post that the J-19 is a stealthy variant of the J-11:

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Finally, recent articles appearing on Chinese internet (including Xinhua) reported that a new carrier-based fighter-bomber called the J-19 has been released:

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From these articles, it seems that J-19 might most likely be a carrier-based fighter, assuming that it exists.

Any thoughts? Could this be the same plane as the "Silent Flanker" or the J-16?

 

[Blitzo]

Re: The mysterious J-19

There's no need for a seperate thread, this can be discussed in the current Flanker thread...

anyways, the J-16 now seems to be allocated to the MKK/F-15E type J-11BS with strike/enhanced strike capabilities which the current J-11B/BS supposedly lack and J-19 refers to the elusive Silent Flanker which was previously known as the J-16.

It would make sense for the PLAN to invest in a "future" carrier fighter apart from the J-15 because as powerful as the airframe is, at the end of the day it is still a flanker with most of its massive RCS, and I also have a feeling the J-15's avionics are not as multi role as say Super Hornets and the platform overall will offer a marginal increase in performance compared to a new build Su-33.
J-19, if it exists would be the PLAN's equivalent to the super hornet, but with all the previous advantages (super manouverability, very long range) of the flankers and with some of the disadvantages removed (RCS), while probably using more 4+ avionics with AESA as one of them.

Such a move would be a good choice, seeing as it will take a long while for the PLAN to get a real 5th generation fighter when most of the resources seem to be allocated to J-20 for the PLAAF... unless they eventually want to operate carrier based J-20s. -shiver-

How credible is that article, btw? My chinese isn't very good so I can't read it well, and a google translate will miss out other subtle hints. It is hard for me to believe xinhua would release something like this...

 

[SinoSoldier]

Re: The mysterious J-19

There's no need for a seperate thread, this can be discussed in the current Flanker thread...

anyways, the J-16 now seems to be allocated to the MKK/F-15E type J-11BS with strike/enhanced strike capabilities which the current J-11B/BS supposedly lack and J-19 refers to the elusive Silent Flanker which was previously known as the J-16.

It would make sense for the PLAN to invest in a "future" carrier fighter apart from the J-15 because as powerful as the airframe is, at the end of the day it is still a flanker with most of its massive RCS, and I also have a feeling the J-15's avionics are not as multi role as say Super Hornets and the platform overall will offer a marginal increase in performance compared to a new build Su-33.
J-19, if it exists would be the PLAN's equivalent to the super hornet, but with all the previous advantages (super manouverability, very long range) of the flankers and with some of the disadvantages removed (RCS), while probably using more 4+ avionics with AESA as one of them.

Such a move would be a good choice, seeing as it will take a long while for the PLAN to get a real 5th generation fighter when most of the resources seem to be allocated to J-20 for the PLAAF... unless they eventually want to operate carrier based J-20s. -shiver-

How credible is that article, btw? My chinese isn't very good so I can't read it well, and a google translate will miss out other subtle hints. It is hard for me to believe xinhua would release something like this...

The J-16, if turns out to be what Huitong said, would be the equivalent to the F-15K, not the F-15E. Like the F-15K, the J-16 possesses very high payload and strike capabilities while retaining its ability to engage in air-to-air battles.

The J-15 is currently the equivalent to the F/A-18F Super Hornet and Rafale-M, with the AESA radar, decreased RCS, and maneuverability giving it advantages over the Super Hornet. The J-19 will be equivalent to Russia's T-50K or the F-35.

J-15 is based on the J-11B, which means that its RCS is 8 times less that of the average Flanker (and the F-15) as well. The J-15's AESA radar (assuming it's the same one used on the J-20 or J-10B) will probably give it an edge over the Super Hornet.

J-20 fighters aren't receiving the top priority right now. There has been rumors that SAC is building a rival to the J-20.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: The mysterious J-19

The J-16, if turns out to be what Huitong said, would be the equivalent to the F-15K, not the F-15E. Like the F-15K, the J-16 possesses very high payload and strike capabilities while retaining its ability to engage in air-to-air battles.

The differences between the F-15E and F-15K, while not superficial, are not that significant. I think there are additional EW suites and an IRST, better engines and ability to fire weapons like SLAM and JASSM.
And the F-15E possesses a "very high payload and strike capabilities while retaining its ability to engage in air to air battles" too... The F-15K to the F-15E is basically what the F-15J was to the USAF F-15C.

The J-15 is currently the equivalent to the F/A-18F Super Hornet and Rafale-M, with the AESA radar, decreased RCS, and maneuverability giving it advantages over the Super Hornet. The J-19 will be equivalent to Russia's T-50K or the F-35.

We dont' know J-15 or J-11B have AESA. It's probably in the pipeline somewhere but nowhere near as established as the F-18E/F's APG-79 and it's too distant to say with confidence "oh yeah J-11B has AESA", because they don't. J-15 is basically a modern build, Chinese Su-33 with current J-11B level avionics, which themselves are not that world class, just to have a competent fighter aircraft to send off a carrier. We can't really go into a very detailed comparison because we have no idea what the avionics of the J-15 are like, but there are some things you can take for granted, like it won't be entering service with an AESA.

J-19, if it is real, will be what the F-15SE is to the F-15, at best. You really expect far too much from SAC.

(And also, you said J-19 would be comparable to T-50K and F-35... Are you saying T-50 and F-35 are therefore comparable?)

J-15 is based on the J-11B, which means that its RCS is 8 times less that of the average Flanker (and the F-15) as well. The J-15's AESA radar (assuming it's the same one used on the J-20 or J-10B) will probably give it an edge over the Super Hornet.

Well the J-10B and the J-20 obviously won't use the same radar and I doubt the J-15 will either, simply due to the massive physical differences in radome size between the first two, and also you can't simply put one radar for one plane onto another.
That whole RCS 8 times smaller thing is also dubious and it quoting that doesn't say anything apart from "ha we have some RCS reduction"... And the J-15/J-11B does not have the F-18E/F's level of RCS reduction (from what we can tell in terms of looking at it), which itself isn't that great in the first place.

Overall I feel Huitong's assessment of the J-15 is most accurate, that it's comparable to the F-18C/D (but not in terms of physical size/range/payload, of course).

J-20 fighters aren't receiving the top priority right now. There has been rumors that SAC is building a rival to the J-20.

... J-20 isn't receiving the top priority? Can you really say that with such confidence?
SAC were knocked out as the main contractor... their proposal was flat out rejected. If they are working on a "rival" it would most likely be private funded.

 

[pugachev_diver]

Re: The mysterious J-19

I doubt the existence of multiple designs floating around. Even for the aeronautics giants in America, even they have to devote full attention to a brand new design. The bureaus in China simply don't have the ability to work on more than one design at once. Chengdu is working on the J-20, if Shenyang is working on something, then it won't be working on another thing. As for up to today, Shengyang and Chengdu are probably the only two bureau that has the ability to finish the brand new design.