China Flanker Thread II

[Blitzo]

J-11B and J-15 are all slated for AESA

I don't know about J-16 and the Silent Flanker, but since they are all based on the J-11B, it is highly likely that they will incorporate AESA

Until we get more substantial evidence it's best to wait before making such claims.

 

[Blitzo]

Nope, that's not true. You never turn a fighter into a trainer and then remove all weapons from it. Doing so will render the "trainer" part useless. All current fighter-trainers (like CF-18B, F/A-18F) all have ground attack capabilities, since it's a crucial part of training.

Please read my post more carefully. I said the J-11BS can't carry A2G (air to ground) weapons. It very well still has the capability to carry air to air weapons.
And fighter trainers/two seater variants of fighters can have ground attack capabilities in terms of being able to be armed with dumb bombs and rocket pods, but not the avionics needed for precision strike.

From what I know, the J-11BS has the ability to carry weapons (just like the J-10S and J-15S)

Air to air weapons, not air to ground weapons (I mean PGMs by this, not dumb bombs)

I don't know where you got the idea that the J-11BS can't carry any weapons (it's not from Huitong), but until you show some sources, it's not going to cut it.

Lol? Do you even read huitong's page..? Jeez and you're asking me for sources... here you go then:

One of the first batch J-11BS fighter trainers was seen parked at the SAC airfield before its delivery to PLAAF. Based on J-11B, this tandem-seat trainer version is also powered by two WS-10 turbofan engines and features similar indigenous avonics. The first prototype was built by the end of 2007. It was rumored that one J-11BS prototype crashed during a test flight at CFTE in 2009. Meanwhile PLAN has ordered a few J-11BSs (J-11BSH?) as well to train its J-11BH pilots. J-11BS was reported to have been certified in May 2010. Previous speculation suggesting J-11BS as a fighter bomber turned out to be inaccurate (see J-16 above).

It was first rumored in August 2010 that SAC is developing a 3.5 generation heavy multi-role fighter bomber (J-16?) based on J-11BS. The aircraft can be viewed as an upgraded version of Su-30MKK based on its mission and capability, which is comparable to American F-15E. First flight was rumored to be between 2011-2012. J-16 has tandem seats with a WSO sitting in the backseat. It features an enhanced fire-control system with additional AG modes. Besides PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs, it could also carry the same precision guided weapons being carried by JH-7A, such as KD-88 ASM and LS-500J LGB. Compared to JH-7A, J-16 is expected to have a more powerful radar, a greater weapon load (8t) and a longer range (4,000km). Further improved variants (J-17 or J-19?) with stealth enhancements such as comformal weapon bay, stealth optimized engine intakes and canted vertical tailfins are also rumored to be under development at SAC.

It's in black and white up there.
The general consensus is that the J-11BS can not carry PGMs. From that logic, if J-11BS can't then J-11B probably can't as well.
...
That is until Huitong gives us his next groundbreaking update...

I highly doubt that Huitong got his information regarding the J-11BS/J-16 from an article as well

What does it matter if he got it from an "article" -- does that lower or add to his credibility or something? And what exactly constitutes an "article"?

 

[SinoSoldier]

Please read my post more carefully. I said the J-11BS can't carry A2G (air to ground) weapons. It very well still has the capability to carry air to air weapons.
And fighter trainers/two seater variants of fighters can have ground attack capabilities in terms of being able to be armed with dumb bombs and rocket pods, but not the avionics needed for precision strike.



Air to air weapons, not air to ground weapons (I mean PGMs by this, not dumb bombs)



Lol? Do you even read huitong's page..? Jeez and you're asking me for sources... here you go then:





It's in black and white up there.
The general consensus is that the J-11BS can not carry PGMs. From that logic, if J-11BS can't then J-11B probably can't as well.
...
That is until Huitong gives us his next groundbreaking update...



What does it matter if he got it from an "article" -- does that lower or add to his credibility or something? And what exactly constitutes an "article"?

Interesting. Why remove guided air-to-ground capabilities for a trainer version? Maybe it's to make it harder for the pilots to aim?

J-11B can carry PGMs because it's a multirole variant that is designed to engage both aircraft, ground targets, and ships. As Sinodefence.com said, the J-11B is able to carry LT series of laser-guide bombs, LS-6 satellite-guided bombs, and more. I simply don't understand why J-11BS can't seem to have that role.

Even then, Huitong does not directly state that the J-11BS can't drop precision guided munitions.

I was suspicious of Huitong's update because I saw the same information posted on Chinese military forums before. Forum posts are not as reliable as news articles.

 

[Maggern]

Interesting. Why remove guided air-to-ground capabilities for a trainer version? Maybe it's to make it harder for the pilots to aim?

J-11B can carry PGMs because it's a multirole variant that is designed to engage both aircraft, ground targets, and ships. As Sinodefence.com said, the J-11B is able to carry LT series of laser-guide bombs, LS-6 satellite-guided bombs, and more. I simply don't understand why J-11BS can't seem to have that role.

Even then, Huitong does not directly state that the J-11BS can't drop precision guided munitions.

I was suspicious of Huitong's update because I saw the same information posted on Chinese military forums before. Forum posts are not as reliable as news articles.

Sinodefence hasn't been updated for years, and we see how huitong only recently updated with information pointing to a lack of this capability. And yes, it wouldn't be logical to remove this capability for a trainer, which is I guess why bltizo said it would be natural to assume the base model (J-11B) lacks this capability as well.

Huitong doesn't have monopoly on the correct sources. Most of the material I'm sure is available to anyone who knows where to look and who to trust. That others have speculated in the same way doesn't mean he's wrong, it just means that others might have stumbled upon the same sources. And forums posts CAN be more reliable than articles. A good example would be tidbits from maya. It all comes down to who you listen to and who actually knows what they're talking about

 

[SinoSoldier]

Sinodefence hasn't been updated for years, and we see how huitong only recently updated with information pointing to a lack of this capability. And yes, it wouldn't be logical to remove this capability for a trainer, which is I guess why bltizo said it would be natural to assume the base model (J-11B) lacks this capability as well.

Huitong doesn't have monopoly on the correct sources. Most of the material I'm sure is available to anyone who knows where to look and who to trust. That others have speculated in the same way doesn't mean he's wrong, it just means that others might have stumbled upon the same sources. And forums posts CAN be more reliable than articles. A good example would be tidbits from maya. It all comes down to who you listen to and who actually knows what they're talking about

Again, I stress the point that Huitong did not directly say that the J-11BS is incapable of carrying air to ground weapons. Maybe the J-11BS isn't built for that role.

Information of the J-11B has been around since 2004. The J-11BS is recently updated by Huitong only. I would trust the information on J-11B more.

And it would be ridiculous to have a 4.5-generation fighter without air to ground capability when even the J-8 has it.

 

[Quickie]

It could be as simple as the J-11BS is meant to be a trainer and therefore is not equipped with the avionics and other hardware neccessary for AG mission. My opinion is it's not like J-11BS is limited by its aerodynamic or structural design that prevents it from carrying AG weapons. Any evidence or info that says otherwise?

 

[SinoSoldier]

It could be as simple as the J-11BS is meant to be a trainer and therefore is not equipped with the avionics and other hardware neccessary for AG mission. My opinion is it's not like J-11BS is limited by its aerodynamic or structural design that prevents it from carrying AG weapons. Any evidence or info that says otherwise?

Well, Huitong says that the J-16 will have additional AG modes. This implies that J-11B and J-11BS already has some air to ground capability. Chinese sources say the J-11BS will be used as both a trainer and a fighter bomber.

It is very possible that the J-16 is simply a further upgraded fighter bomber of the J-11BS with more powerful avionics and load

 

[Blitzo]

Well, Huitong says that the J-16 will have additional AG modes. This implies that J-11B and J-11BS already has some air to ground capability. Chinese sources say the J-11BS will be used as both a trainer and a fighter bomber.

It is very possible that the J-16 is simply a further upgraded fighter bomber of the J-11BS with more powerful avionics and load

Doubtful -- if we're interpreting what Huitong's article is saying then it's obvious he believes J-11BS was not meant as a fighter bomber. He says somethign along the lines of "J-11BS was not a fighter bomber as previously thought" -- it's in black and white.
The "additional A to G modes" means in addtion to current A2A modes, when read in conjunction with the above statement.

 

[SinoSoldier]

Doubtful -- if we're interpreting what Huitong's article is saying then it's obvious he believes J-11BS was not meant as a fighter bomber. He says somethign along the lines of "J-11BS was not a fighter bomber as previously thought" -- it's in black and white.
The "additional A to G modes" means in addtion to current A2A modes, when read in conjunction with the above statement.

I have photos of full-size SAC-released J-11B mockups with guided air-to-ground weapons as well as a J-11B firing a Kh-29 air-to-surface missile.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Blitzo]

I have photos of full-size SAC-released J-11B mockups with guided air-to-ground weapons as well as a J-11B firing a Kh-29 air-to-surface missile.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The first link doesn't work for me, so my reply will be with that context.

Out of those pictures the only one which definitively suggests to me that the J-11B has an A2G capability is the model with the Kh-31 anti radiation missiles loaded on it with PL-12s.

The others could very well by russian made flankers, and the picture with lots of munitions on a stand with the flanker photo behind it doesn't tell me those missiles are for flankers. I'm not trying to haggle, but most of those pictures you linked to are kind of ambiguous with their conclusion.

Maybe J-11B only had the capability to fire russian A2G weapons but not PLA ones, maybe those models of J-11B with A2G were inaccurate (wouldn't be the first time such a PR display has gone wrong). Unfortunately at the end of the day we don't have any clear pictures yet of a clear J-11B armed with definitive A2G weapons whether they be russian or chinese, and nothing conclusive and recent showing they can carry A2G weapons of any kind.

That, with huitong's update -- and keep in mind he wouldn't put up such a drastic change of view unless it was likely such a thing was real -- leads me to deduce J-11B and J-11BS probably do not have the capability to fire PGMs of any kind, or at least are not designed to. Maybe their radars can be used for some strike roles but as of this moment cannot fire PGMs. For me personally the jury is still out on whether J-11B and BS can fire PGMs or not, because I see no reason why SAC can't put in the avionics necessary, and when everything previously read said the reason for developing J-11B and BS was because the russian flankers didn't have PGM capability...

This recent update has really put a spanner in the works.