China demographics thread.

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
In the past, the rural poor in China provided the labor pool for China's rapid development, industrialization, and urbanization. They were responsible for building China's cities, infrastructure, and factories, as well as working in the low wage manufacturing jobs that generated the initial capital needed to fuel China's rapid rise. It is imperative that this labor pool does not dry up before sufficient advancements in automation are made that would drastically reduce the amount of unskilled labor required. Otherwise China will be in the same situation as the US, where labor costs are so high that it becomes prohibitively expensive to build anything.


Maximizing consumption, both on a per-capita basis and especially on an aggregate basis should not be the goal. It is not sustainable to promote a massive population consuming as much possible. China's per capita consumption is currently low so there is room for growth, but only up to a certain point. The goal should be a sustainable population with maximal quality of life for all and where you have sufficient human capital to produce/develop everything that is needed. Gradual decline in population over the next few generations would be ideal. The problem with a sharp drop in birthrate is that eventually the proportion of working age people becomes too low, giving rise to the situation where each working couple has to support 4 elderly parents as well as (ideally) 1-2 children. Policy should aim to push birth rate up to around 1.6-1.8 ( and eventually 2.0 once the desirable population level is reached).


The problem is that a lot of the climate change is actually impacting the north. Desertification and water shortage are already significant challenges in North China, so I doubt that North China outside of few select areas in the Northeastern 3 provinces can support any substantial increases in population. The most comfortable and pleasant region to live is by far Jiangsu/Zhejiang. Once you've spent any amount of time in a nice Jiangnan city, you will not want to live anywhere else (in the world). Not only the is the climate ideal, the cities in that region tend to be the best developed, most advanced, cleanest, newest, most modern cities in the world. Even BJ falls far behind cities like Suzhou/Hangzhou/Wuxi/Shanghai.


The population of Mongolia is roughly the same as that of a single district in Beijing.
Surprisingly even in Jiangnan there is water stress.

There's a reason Sichuan and especially Chengdu has had absolutely ridiculous growth rates recently. It has both high population and high water resources per capita.
 

jli88

Junior Member
Registered Member
Somehow this missed me, apparently China's TFR is already down to 1.09 in 2022! And some sources saying that it is down to 1.02 in 2023!!!!

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For context, South Korea crossed TFR of 1 in 2018. With this trend, China may cross TFR of 1 in a few years. Just 6-7 years behind, and the pace of decline is much faster than Korea, at a wealth level significantly lower than Koreas.

People are taking this too lightly. It's not like you can wake up one day and suddenly fix this, the later you start the harder it gets, because the number of child bearing women also decrease dramatically. In my opinion this is THE biggest long term challenge for China.
 
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resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why wouldn't they just move to Russia where they will already know some Russian?
Do Russia willing to accept them when there are already increasing percentage of Mongolian group (like tuvan and other groups) inside Russia?
Also I don't think Russia gonna doing well economically after Ukraine war no matter how the outcome.
 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
Feasibility aside, you think it makes sense for investment on such a massive scale to greenify a region with a population smaller than a 4th tier city when there already exists adjacent regions with population in the tens of millions? Look on a map and see the location of the current great green wall then look at where outer Mongolia is. It makes far more economic sense for migration out of Mongolia, and focus on developing extractive industries in Mongolia (minerals and coal).
What do you think the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps do all day? What do you think the PLAN soldiers on SCS islands do, sit around and watch the radar screen? China has a tuntian (tunkun) policy since the Western Zhou dynasty almost 3000 years ago. Unlike many other countries, China wasn't magically gifted 1.4 million km2 of arable land. The Chinese toiled for many generations to build China into the land it is today. Mountains, deserts, swamps, rivers, oceans were all no match for Chinese ingenuity and hard work. It's a joke that you think the Chinese people with 21st century technology can't turn Outer Mongolia into the green steppe again.

Unlike other barbaric/nomadic/colonial cultures, the Chinese mentality isn't just to exploit the resources of their homeland, the Chinese people have long attachment to the land and actually put in the effort to improve it. 绿水青山就是金山银山 isn't just Xi's political slogan, it is one of CPC's guiding principle and it reflects the agrarian based Chinese culture.
 
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tacoburger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Mongolian hate China. Like... really hate China, to the degree where they'd rather be annexed by Russia. And they consider themselves Central Asians, not East Asians, and many speak Russian as a 2nd language, not Chinese. Realistically they'd move their entire country to Russia if they could, it's Russia that is hesitant to want them.
This is already changing with the recent events involving Russia. The illusion of Russia being this ultra-badass warrior state is gone and their declining power is clear to see, while China's quality of life and power is just getting clearer and clearer. Turns out that Russia was borrowing alot of their power and prestige from the soviet union. Not to mention Russia current sabre rattling towards central Asia and throwing their rural poor central Asian men into the War.

If Mongolia was a part of Russia, a lot of their men would be in the frontlines today. Yeah 10 years ago Mongolians would have clearly preferred to join Russia, but today it's changing and 10 years from now... who's to say how Russia would look like and if Putin and his inner circle of soviet boomers would stop trying to recreate the soviet union by invading former soviet states.
Meanwhile almost at least 90 percent of Mongolia will turn to desert. They have no choice but to move somewhere else and force to learn Mandarin
Climate change made Mongolia unable to live sustainably anymore due to lower rainfall( lost grassland won't come back). This country may be gone in few decades and millions pop must leave for somewhere else.
The problem is that a lot of the climate change is actually impacting the north. Desertification and water shortage are already significant challenges in North China, so I doubt that North China outside of few select areas in the Northeastern 3 provinces can support any substantial increases in population.
In most models of climate change, rainfall actually increases in northern China. This might not be a good thing however, since a lot of that could be in brief period of heavy rainfall that could easily cause flooding. And of course, take this kind of climate modelling with a large grain of salt, different models produce different results depending on what parameters you input and they're not 100% accurate.

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zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Surprisingly even in Jiangnan there is water stress.

There's a reason Sichuan and especially Chengdu has had absolutely ridiculous growth rates recently. It has both high population and high water resources per capita.

If the cost of renewable energy generation continues to decrease at the same pace as we've seen in recent years, large scale desalination of sea water will soon be economically viable.
 
What do you think the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps do all day? What do you think the PLAN soldiers on SCS islands do, sit around and watch the radar screen? China has a tuntian (tunkun) policy since the Western Zhou dynasty almost 3000 years ago. Unlike many other countries, China wasn't magically gifted 1.4 million km2 of arable land. The Chinese toiled for many generations to build China into the land it is today. Mountains, deserts, swamps, rivers, oceans were all no match for Chinese ingenuity and hard work. It's a joke that you think the Chinese people with 21st century technology can't turn Outer Mongolia into the green steppe again.

Unlike other barbaric/nomadic/colonial cultures, the Chinese mentality isn't just to exploit the resources of their homeland, the Chinese people have long attachment to the land and actually put in the effort to improve it. 绿水青山就是金山银山 isn't just Xi's political slogan, it is one of CPC's guiding principle and it reflects the agrarian based Chinese culture.

Water can be diverted (as already being done on a massive scale to North China) but water cannot be created. China as a whole has a water shortage. Areas in the northern part of China proper lack water. To divert water to Mongolia would mean increasing the water stress on other far more important regions. Just because it can be done does not mean it should be done. What benefit does a green Mongolia bring? Even if affordable seawater desalination comes online in the near future, it is still not going to be a worthwhile expenditure of resources to greenify Mongolia. And extracting resources has nothing to do with mentality towards exploitation. China has a massive demand for natural resources, and resources are being extracted all over China. If there are minerals that are needed by Chinese industry in Mongolia, why not extract it? What would make Mongolia special in relation to other regions of China that would make it worthy of being greenified and its mineral wealth preserved and left in the ground? There are barely anyone living there.
 

jli88

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the cost of renewable energy generation continues to decrease at the same pace as we've seen in recent years, large scale desalination of sea water will soon be economically viable.

It's already economical. Israel employs desalination at massive scale and the cost is minimal, especially for household uses. If we have nuclear fusion ready, you can literally just boil water, and transport 100% pure H20 via pipelines to anywhere on Earth.

The Malthusians were wrong, are wrong, and will be wrong. Human ingenuity has always beaten any resource constraints to human expansion.
 
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