China demographics thread.

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
By this point, I believe there is no longer the need to implement population control policies in China anymore. Might as well just abolish the three-child policy altogether.

What's the point of keeping that limit in place when many youngsters today are reluctant to have babies?

Easy. China has more than 1 hundred million ccp member. Make them bear a shit ton, mimimum 4 children per family. Then we have a baby boom. If they fail to do so, expel them.
Then who is going to bear the stacking-up costs and efforts of raising those babies and children?
 
Last edited:

Chilled_k6

Junior Member
Registered Member
Nobody sane advocates throwing people in jail for not having children, but there are many more subtle and effective means of compulsion. For instance, consider the following simple two-step plan:
  • Step 1: Property tax.
  • Step 2: Got two kids? Property tax exemption.
Some might argue that this unjustly punishes people who have fewer than two children, and they'd be exactly right. But justice isn't a consideration, efficacy is. We have to accept that any effective solution to this problem is going to harm some people who shouldn't be harmed. Sad but true.
Will this have a plan for couples physically unable to have kids or infertile? I don't necessarily disagree with the idea in a general sense but depending on how it's implemented, there may be undesirable effects and people will try to find loopholes. For example some people may find ways to be infertile on purpose, raising 2 kids is quite expensive after all even with property tax exemption.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Will this have a plan for couples physically unable to have kids or infertile? I don't necessarily disagree with the idea in a general sense but depending on how it's implemented, there may be undesirable effects and people will try to find loopholes. For example some people may find ways to be infertile on purpose, raising 2 kids is quite expensive after all even with property tax exemption.
If they can, the government can cover a portion of the costs for IVF.
If there is a real medical issue, then adoption is also possible.

If not, then just increase their taxes slightly to cover their free-loading lifestyle, even though its medical.

Of course, all these steps should be done after the government has addressed housing, child raising costs, work-life balance issues
 

Jiang ZeminFanboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
As far as I am aware, the Polish policies of simply giving money to heterosexual couples to have a child have worked. At the very least there has been a statistically significant increase in birth rates post-policy. Apparently they had spent PLN 21 billion in 2017, or about 0.9% of their GDP. Looking at the TFR, it does look like that has boosted rates by 0.1 since it was started in 2015 (~1.35 when started and ~1.45 now). If trends continue Polish TFR might settle somewhere around 1.7.

I've seen some argument that it was because of the near universality of the benefits that Poland's policy has made an impact whereas the loans and other financial tricks used by countries like Hungary have failed. I'm not too familiar with the exact details of the Polish 500+ policy, but it appears to apply to basically all 2nd and above child and across all income levels. If the household income level is low enough, it also applies to the 1st child. Of course, initial data also suggests the policy has lowered female labor force participation rates by 2.5-3% so it's not like there hasn't been any additional consequences.

So I agree in general, it does look like just giving a significant amount of money to every women having whatever-parity child would work.
I think It doesn't work, green births, red deaths. The effect was for two years. Since 2016, additionally I guess about 1 million Ukrainian woman also came, which give additional births.

20230117_084007.jpg
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Work-life balance/economics is usually the biggest problem. When everyone is slaving to afford an apartment and a good education for their child, don't expect them to go for a second and a third child

Social engineering should also be on the cards after the work-life balance/economic aspect has been addressed.
For TFR to reach replacement level, you'd have to factor in additional negative factors:
  • People who choose or are forced to be single (~15% of China's population)
  • People who suffer from primary or secondary infertility (~25% of China's population)
  • Married people who choose, as a life style, to never have children (unknown, but probably significant)
The married, reproductive couples would have to have ~3-4 children on average to make up for the above. That is certainly not possible given current economic burdens facing the average Chinese family. Even if the government were to step in with subsidies and work-life balance support, it'd be a difficult hill to climb and would put these people way behind their low/no children peers. It'd drastically lower their standard of living, also, given the typical apartment size in China.

The biggest contributor to low fertility is actually very simple, and it applies to the entire world - female education & participation in the labor force. If women are encouraged or expected to work, they have less children. Period. There's no getting around this dynamic.

What makes it worse for East Asia, however, is that traditional family values have been destroyed by capitalist excess. Female labor participation rates aren't that different between the US and China, and legally speaking, pregnancy benefits in China are probably actually better than those in the US. But women in the US are much more willing to have children, for these reasons: 1) more space/larger housing, 2) strong family values in South and Central US and 3) immigrants, though this isn't as important as one might think when looking at the charts - state-level differences are larger, and white families in more conservative regions of the US are highly fertile, compared to China, South Korea, Japan, etc.

East Asian culture, in my view, has gone down the wrong path in regards to competing over "life style quality," where people pride themselves over how much they have, rather than how much they create. Obviously, if you don't have children, you'll have more - money, career, vacations, luxury products, etc. That's what young East Asian people care about, these days, and it's taking a huge toll on their desire to sacrifice for children.

Where did this culture come from? It isn't East Asian traditions, but rather an extreme variation of Western - or more precisely, American - consumerist culture. Take the worst of Western consumerism & individualism, mix it with East Asian class/prestige obsession, add a bit of radical feminism, and you have the toxic mixture of modern East Asian culture that is destroying its demographics and with it, its future.

The only way out is to change that culture entirely, through a mix of stick (punish those who indulge in it) and carrot (reward those who resist it). Social engineering is far from easy, and Japan & South Korea have already failed. Yet, it is necessary. Even if it's too late for short-term improvements, it is still important in the long-term to get over this toxic hyper individualism for future generations.

Fortunately, nature will lend a hand, here - the fact that those who indulge in hyper individualism will NOT reproduce will ultimately reduce their numbers and thus their influence among the population. But nature alone cannot triumph, not when it's gotten this bad already. It'll take an all of society effort to correct the course.
 

Quan8410

Junior Member
Registered Member
Then who is going to bear the stacking-up costs and efforts of raising those babies and children?
Pension. With the current death rate, China will have about 500k to 1 mil death this year due to covid alone. Get the pension unused and fund it to bear more children.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Endless population growth causes more issues than benefits in the long run. All it does is kicking the can down the road for the descendants to deal with an even more severe crisis.

At the heart of the current crisis is the issue that the current generation of Chinese elders are expected to become as old as those in the most advanced Western countries, if not even older. You can't prevent this, except by deliberately killing elders...

Many elders will cause the burden to increase on the generation of 25 to 50 Yr olds, which are the generation that prefers to not have children.

However, a healthy population is inherently cyclical. A fall in population will lead to many opened opportunities, creating a baby boom in the generation that is about to be born, or those who are 1-10 yrs now.

The path forward is more simple than any unnatural advocation for eugenics or for the abhorrent practice of forced birth.

China should employ the twin strategies of improving 4th industrial revolution work-at-home schemes. This will allow, or to some extent, already allows elders to work formerly physically demanding tasks from the comfort of their homes. In the future, a 70+ Yr old can do simple work, overseeing an AI driven robotics line, or perhaps an unmanned café or retail store.

The other side of the strategy is to encourage immigration. They will provide an injection of working and marriage age adults without the costs of raising them.

Together, these strategies will not fix population decline, but it will minimize the economical effects. After tanking the hit of the 40s baby boom getting old, China will be in a position to naturally grow again.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Pension. With the current death rate, China will have about 500k to 1 mil death this year due to covid alone. Get the pension unused and fund it to bear more children.
How about a two tiered salary scale with higher income for people with children in state owned companies? The private sector will follow. Require senior management to have at least one child to qualify for promotion
 

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Endless population growth causes more issues than benefits in the long run. All it does is kicking the can down the road for the descendants to deal with an even more severe crisis.

At the heart of the current crisis is the issue that the current generation of Chinese elders are expected to become as old as those in the most advanced Western countries, if not even older. You can't prevent this, except by deliberately killing elders...

Many elders will cause the burden to increase on the generation of 25 to 50 Yr olds, which are the generation that prefers to not have children.

However, a healthy population is inherently cyclical. A fall in population will lead to many opened opportunities, creating a baby boom in the generation that is about to be born, or those who are 1-10 yrs now.

The path forward is more simple than any unnatural advocation for eugenics or for the abhorrent practice of forced birth.

China should employ the twin strategies of improving 4th industrial revolution work-at-home schemes. This will allow, or to some extent, already allows elders to work formerly physically demanding tasks from the comfort of their homes. In the future, a 70+ Yr old can do simple work, overseeing an AI driven robotics line, or perhaps an unmanned café or retail store.

The other side of the strategy is to encourage immigration. They will provide an injection of working and marriage age adults without the costs of raising them.

Together, these strategies will not fix population decline, but it will minimize the economical effects. After tanking the hit of the 40s baby boom getting old, China will be in a position to naturally grow again.
thank you, finally a sensible comment on this issue.

i always thought it was weird that people want constant population growth, surely that cannot be the answer given that China is already overloaded with people. there is a need to cushion the blow of aging demographics, but that can be achieved by means other than growing the population even more.

it also seems to me that the CCP sees population decline as simply an empirical factor to work within. population growth is not a policy goal for them or you would see a more aggressive push in that direction. i read further up the thread that some posters suggest potent monetary support for families. my thoughts on this is that it is such a great sacrifice for uncertain reward and even some risks. the gov spends money to make people have babies, it will create tension in the society, and there is no guarantee that it will work, and even if it does it will simply add to the burden of finding these people jobs...why would the government do that?
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
I'm sorry to use you as an unflattering example, but whenever someone brings up "traditional values" in this discussion I know that their understanding of the issue is shallow at best. There's a romanticized notion of the pre-modern family where children were valued and prized... bullshit.

People had children historically - in the good old days of "traditional values" - for two reasons:
  1. There were no reliable contraceptives (not for lack of trying, some of the methods were exceedingly creative). They couldn't help but have children.
  2. Children, especially male children, worked the fields. People were economically incentivized to have children because they were the retirement plan.
Really? You know the reasons why all people in history had children?

What about the most common reason people have children today - because they like children and want them?

What about the religious obligation, or a cultural moral duty to have children, and for a male a sign of virility?
One could maybe make that argument in America, and even there it would be very weak. But in China? Get real. This problem is difficult enough to solve without getting sidetracked chasing phantoms. Blaming it on "teh geys" is as silly and lazy as blaming it on a loss of "traditional values" and will guarantee that you have precisely zero solutions. Lose both ideas.

This is an economic problem. The TFR is low in China and East Asia generally because the economic incentives are misaligned and will need to be brought back into alignment by government action. Which brings me to...

If what you wrote before was misguided, this is dead wrong. The most effective way to change people's behaviour is with carrots and sticks, and if you pre-emptively put aside the stick then you've guaranteed your failure.

Nobody sane advocates throwing people in jail for not having children, but there are many more subtle and effective means of compulsion. For instance, consider the following simple two-step plan:
  • Step 1: Property tax.
  • Step 2: Got two kids? Property tax exemption.
Some might argue that this unjustly punishes people who have fewer than two children, and they'd be exactly right. But justice isn't a consideration, efficacy is. We have to accept that any effective solution to this problem is going to harm some people who shouldn't be harmed. Sad but true.

That's nowhere near extreme. If you want to see what extreme looks like, give this a read:
Thanks to decades of western subreplacement fertility rates and multiple failures, we have a lot of data on what works and doesn't work. Financial incentives don't work, they only lead to a temporary increase in births. If you are thinking only about economics, children will always be a bad idea.

The only successful method has been immigration from higher fertility regions such as the Middle East, Africa and Latin America. This is the only reason why western European fertility rates are slightly above eastern Asia.
But even that effect will not continue over multiple generations as the immigrants become assimilated, leading to a need for more migrants.

Low fertility rates are a symptom of liberalism, and that includes feminism, homosexuality and many tenants of the modern western lifestyle. Very low rates seen in Japan & South Korea are a result of the above PLUS low immigration rates.
 
Top