China can and will achieve total air superiority over Taiwan

SampanViking

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How exactly do you think these kind of things are conducted:rofl:

Lots of very polite people discussing human betterment over Cucumber Sandwiches:confused:

These are serious guys talking serious business, realpolitik and all that. I know how these guys get just over the sale of a load of DVD Players, if it comes to something really serious; then trust me, the gloves really come off and anything goes and any angle or advantage is fair game. Its what everybody expects and frankly would be worried and suspicious if it did not happen.

The US defence contractors will happily pay the bungs as nobody knows how things will turn out or how long they will take, which means there is always a chance that their deal might actually go through;)
 
D

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How exactly do you think these kind of things are conducted

No offence, Sampan, but you don't have any direct knowledge of US defence contract negotiations, do you? So why ask a question like that?

These are serious guys talking serious business, realpolitik and all that. I know how these guys get just over the sale of a load of DVD Players, if it comes to something really serious; then trust me, the gloves really come off and anything goes and any angle or advantage is fair game. Its what everybody expects and frankly would be worried and suspicious if it did not happen.

Is there a point in that paragraph relevant to the discussion?

The US defence contractors will happily pay the bungs as nobody knows how things will turn out or how long they will take, which means there is always a chance that their deal might actually go through

Rather forgetting the bit about the US government having to approve the sale as well. The fact the F-16 sale was turned down due to the political bickering rather indicates that the US will block weapons purchases if it suspects Taiwanese political parties are putting petty points-scoring over being serious in regards to defending themselves. Thus I doubt very much the US would authorise sales for Taipei to use them as a bargaining chip.
 
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SampanViking

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No offence, Sampan, but you don't have any direct knowledge of US defence contract negotiations

Whose talking US defence contracts? I'm talking Inter Party talks between CCP and KMT and before you say no I am not a PRC/Taiwanese negotiator, but I have been involved in UK interparty negotiations at various levels over many years. Ultimatly they are business negotiations like any other, its just the product thats a bit different.

Is there a point in that paragraph relevant to the discussion
Yes, I have first hand experience of negotiating deals with Chinese companies, some of them even SOE's effectively run by Party Officers. The point is that KMT CCP normalisation discussions will be essentially the same only a lot more complex ans for far higher stakes.

Rather forgetting the bit about the US government having to approve the sale as well.

One step at a time Fu, you do need to have a deal agreed on the table in order to apply for approval. Its not exactly an automatic process and approval is just another hurdle.
 
D

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Sampan, those are all lovely comments. But they do not explain to me why on earth Taiwan would risk losing US arms sales. Really I think you're losing sight of the big picture. The US has shown it won't let Taiwan jerk it around. If the KMT were to ignore that they would be doing so at their own peril. So I doubt very much they would use arms purchases as a negotiating point because:

a) the Americans may well tell Taiwan to get lost.
b) the Chinese may take umbrage at being "threatened" and get nasty. The CCP is very proud and sees Taiwan as an inferior/subordinate political entity. They won't take kindly to any political party from there, even the KMT, trying to blackmail them.
 

Violet Oboe

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The members of China´s corps diplomatique (this includes also the specialized CCP functionaries for external/foreign relations) are highly competent people with extensive experience. The delicate negotiations with a KMT delegation about ´normalization´ would be prepared in an extreme elaborate way for not taking any chance for failure.

In recent years several high ranking KMT delegations have been visiting the mainland and mutual confidence and understanding has already built up steadily. Interestingly Singapore was very helpful in establishing direct links with a broad range of important taiwanese and this indicates also how the course of this essentially ethnically chinese cityrepublic might change if the somewhat sinophobic ´foundingfather´Lee Kuan Yew eventually passes away. The current primeminister of Singapore Lee Hsien Loong (a son of the elder Lee) has already been busy distancing his administration from the splittist Chen Shuibian government on Taiwan and has significantly reduced the longstanding military cooperation of Singapore with Taiwan. Additionally Singapores stateowned investment corporation Temasek (chaired by Lee jr. wife Ho Ching) has recently poured billions of US$ into Hong Kong and mainland investments (e.g. Bank of China) and persistant rumours are around that the Government of Singapore Investment Corporation (GIC) which manages Singapores currency reserves (in excess of 100 bn $) has bought dozens of billions of Yuan in anticipation of a further appreciation of the Renminbi.

After all in every corner of Asia chinese people are deepening their mutual economic, cultural and political relationship and late but certainly not too late the politicians who will determine Taiwan´s future have finally decided to join in. Of course nothing will come over night but after as few years the sheer economic and social (migration, intermarriage) dynamics will make the whole process irreversible. :D

(Remaining problems like seperate or unified military forces will be of secondary importance by then and will eventually be solved without haste in an orderly manner. China will obviously be keen not to offend or provoke the US during the whole critical normalization (eventually reunification) procedure and Beijing will accordingly be prepeared to make significant concessions regarding Taiwan´s strategic status.)
 

SampanViking

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I agree with you Violet Oboe and I have every confidence in the ability of such negotiaitions to succede.

We are however straying somewhat offtopic, so I will finish simply by saying to Fu that both "Normalisation" and "Security Enhancement" are both legitimate if mutually exclusive options. As such all parties will happily persue both options untill such time as one becomes the clear winner and the other can be dispensed with.

This is not playing games or Blackmail, its just negotiation and any Arms Manufacturer worthy of the name will want to have their products in contension, just as any US Administration will publicly support Normalisation whilst assisting with possible arms purchases if they fail and the liklihood of a serious deterioration in the cross straits security situation if failure should happen..

Now I think we should return to topic;)
 
D

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Sampan, I too will finish off by making a last reply on this matter.

This is not playing games or Blackmail

Yes, one could see it as negotiation. But that's not the point. China would certainly view it as blackmail and/or an "unacceptable demand from an inferior political organisation". The CCP is currently trying to be nice to the KMT, but they do not see them as anything like equal partners. Even if you're at the same level what you suggested is a risky tactic - doing it when the other side thinks you're beneath them is a very bad idea.

As to the US, their support for Taiwan is not out of the goodness of their own hearts. They want to make a bit of money while furthering their own strategic interests. Every time they merely authorise the sale of something to Taiwan they lose out on a potential trade or diplomatic deal with China. Thus they would not be drawn into "negotiations" between Taiwan and China by preparing to sell weapons if they believed Taiwan would not actually buy them. China would still apply the "you want to sell arms to Taiwan, we don't help you out as you would like" policy. In the future it may well be a case of Taiwan having to budget for weapons purchases before the US will agree to them.

Anyway, back to the air-war scenario - if anyone has much further to say on that.
 
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Raptoreyes

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Even if Chinese air technology gains parity with both that of Taiwan and the United States, the issue of Chinese pilot proficiency with their machines will loom very large. Enough training to do some basic air combat with the plane, is a far cry from being extremely and well talented pilot that is superbly trained. In other words can the Chinese still prevail in the airspace over Taiwan, when they're looking at a four to one kill ratio in their opponents favor?

Stealth technology makes for an even bigger wild card as ace pilots will not be killed at the rate they were in previous wars, simply because they'll be able to stay off the radar sets more consistently. I wouldn't bet on China winning the air war over Taiwan anytime soon so long as the United States is willing to get militarily involved.
 

crobato

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You have not been reading a lot do you? So don't give me this lack of training stereotype. PLAAF pilots now train 140 to 180 hours yearly, not as high as NATO 200 hours, but then many air forces don't fill that quota either. The thing is, these PLAAF pilots have more of their training dedicated in air combat and tactics because they don't divide their time into multirole, as they have seperate bomber and strike groups.

What makes you think the ROCAF can achieve a 4 to 1 kill favor. Against PLAAF planes using the PL-12, they are seeing a negative ratio in simulations, which is prompting calls to obtain the latest C7 AMRAAM variant in order to redress the favor. The ROCAF is already seriously outmatched in the close range area due to the proficiency and presence of helmet sighting systems and wide off boresight missiles on the part of the PLAAF which they can redress with acquiring AIM-9X. However, the PLAAF still continues to improve, since they now have their own force multipliers like AEWS, C31, dedicated ECM/EW planes.
 

Raptoreyes

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You have not been reading a lot do you? So don't give me this lack of training stereotype. PLAAF pilots now train 140 to 180 hours yearly, not as high as NATO 200 hours, but then many air forces don't fill that quota either. The thing is, these PLAAF pilots have more of their training dedicated in air combat and tactics because they don't divide their time into multirole, as they have seperate bomber and strike groups.

This would be precisely why I come to this forum. I was unaware that the Chinese had failed to purchase multi-role aircraft. Specialization of that type is definitely a point in mainland air arms favor. However there is the human element to consider. In this element is hardly without substance when we look at the history of warfare.

The Politburo's and Air Force will likely be a little bit more political than professional as the PRC's Politburo relies upon its armed forces and intelligence agencies to protect itself from its own populations, desire for change. Therefore much more strict adherence and obedience to authority is stressed and much less creative thinking on and off the battlefield is tolerated. The history of put highly political military forces against highly professional military forces has not been kind to the more political force of the two. This is been as much true when we compare the Spartans to the Persians as when we compare the Iraqi army against that of the United States in the first Gulf War.

The killing of highly placed commanders in forces that use a Soviet style command structure is highly effective. Disruptions from upper-level command to subordinates can be devastating to rigid command structures. While the Chinese government remains quite authoritarian the addition of capitalism may have changed their military and opened up a weakness in my argument. The question is can the Chinese army of today be more akin in to the Cold War's Soviet Army or to Germany's forces from 1933 to 1945 ( since the economic structures of the PRC and the German historical listed above are quite similar at this time).

A huge question of which I hope this form can help me centers on the current nature of the PRC forces. If the forces of mainland China are trained more in the fashion that Germany's pre-Cold War Armed Forces, not to completely rethink my argument. However if China still trains its forces in the more Soviet fashion then a US and Taiwan Air Force you working jointly with half a far less challenging time repelling PRC and attacks. The current political culture of PRC armed forces is of primary importance, for the purposes of evaluating likely outcomes.


What makes you think the ROCAF can achieve a 4 to 1 kill favor. Against PLAAF planes using the PL-12, they are seeing a negative ratio in simulations, which is prompting calls to obtain the latest C7 AMRAAM variant in order to redress the favor. The ROCAF is already seriously outmatched in the close range area due to the proficiency and presence of helmet sighting systems and wide off boresight missiles on the part of the PLAAF which they can redress with acquiring AIM-9X. However, the PLAAF still continues to improve, since they now have their own force multipliers like AEWS, C31, dedicated ECM/EW planes.

My speculations are presented as a upper end worst case for the mainlands military air arm. My predictions are also predicated upon the Unitied States aiding Taiwan in the event of belligerency on the part of the PRC. The ROK's airforce alone might fulfill its mission but be so very badly Mauled that it would be in every bit a state of jeopardy as the Royal Airforce was against hordes of German Bombers and fighters midway through operation SeaLion. (in other words the dependence upon the enemy choosing its targets poorly and focusing on cities instead of air installations)

Like the British the Taiwanese will have a motivation to fight with extreme valor and commitment. As far as the Taiwanese are concerned their government IS the legitimate government of China, and the PRC is simply a counter revolution Chang Kai Shek failed to quell due to the untimely arrival of the Japanese.
 
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