China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
SpicySichuan said:
Well, how do you think the Chinese deal flexibly with hawkish elites like Trump and his advisors then (or Putin, or elites who love brinkmanship without having to directly pay for it themselves)? Keep in mind that should counter-value strategic nuclear exchange occur, these elites all have luxurious bunkers they and their families could hide in. Ultimately, it is ordinary people and soldiers in the warring countries who pay the price of city-busting strategic nuclear exchange, not elites who do not have to take the direct punishment for their decisions. In other words, once this whole hypothetical saga come to an end, it is the very perpetrators who are likely to emerge as winners and continue to rebuild the world (or at least their own countries) according to their own desires. Having said that, I will be surprised if Xi and other Standing Committee did not prepare secret bunkers deep inside China's mountain ranges for their offsprings to live through a nuclear winter. To conclude, what I am trying to argue is that should someone like Trump start a nuclear war, he would have far less to pay compared to his compatriots. Same argument goes to CCP rulers.
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You do realise that these billionaire bunkers are just scams right?!

Firstly few if any of them are robust enough to survive nuclear strikes, depending on how close one lands. Most of these bunkers only have rudimentary water and air filtration systems, with air intakes especially vulnerable to things like shockwave over pressure, being buried by debris, and/or having plastic bags wrapped over them by other survivors wanting the bunkers open so they can get at the supplies inside etc.

Secondly, even if these bunkers survive, none can allow their occupants to survive for more than a few months or a couple years max. That means they will just be delaying the inevitable. Even if someone was crazy enough to build full Fallout-like vaults, you are looking at spending decades or hundreds of years with just your close and extended family. Enjoy the incest I guess? :S

Thirdly, life in their bunkers will be such a huge and fundamental reduction in the quality of life of the super elite compared to today that many of them will probably swallow their own gun barrels long before they start to run low on supplies. It is most certainly not something anyone in their right might purposefully look to trigger no matter how well they might have prepared.

And lastly, just to seal the deal, China’s underground Great Wall, consisting of thousands to tens of thousands or more miles of tunnel systems, barracks, stores armouries and all the other support systems and supplies needed for huge numbers of people to survive more or less indefinitely; all built deep within mountains and specifically to survive direct nuclear hits; are pretty much the biggest and best chance any society in the world has to survive a fall nuclear Armageddon and subsequent nuclear winter and retain some semblance to what it is pre-war. That means after a full nuclear reset, it will be the Chinese who emerge as a stable and fully functional society as supposed to scattered radiation poisoned wondering bands of savages, and thus the default masters of the new world. That should remove any remaining incentive for lunatics and madmen looking to reset the world, because after the reset it won’t be them or their descendants who will inherit the earth.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I too think nuclear bunkers is a bonkers idea. It's actually quite silly unless nukes ignore a certain area of the world. Few of those "preper" types seem genuinely well prepared. They're really just collecting resources for survivors to loot. If no survivors, really going to be a terrible fate and nothing like those post apocalyptic dystopian sci fis. No one no matter how tough could survive a week without society. Ignoring the fact there would be no food or drinkable water left and the stockpiles of food and filtration/ water supplies may last years for those prepared to that level (rare and most are poor attempts that won't work) but to what end? To eventually live in a world without doctors, entertainers, farmers, and their chauffeurs or the workers that build their Bentleys. Lol good luck with that... instant incineration is preferable to that misery. Not even accounting for the radiation and no sunlight and painful diseases that require professional assistance and infrastructure. There is no post nuclear exchange world. The only one crazy and greedy enough to even contemplate this also happens to be the nation that have used it in the past.

Cold War near misses and nuclear weapon accidents (numerous and enlightening if one look them up) is not enough for the outright ban or genuine attempt at disarmament, nothing is going to change the mindsets until a near miss becomes an event. The warheads accidentally lost and dropped which poisoned land and water is not enough to make them reconsider, the only solution China has against such a type of power horder is to ensure its ability for MAD. Properly ensure rather than a should be good enough attitude that many seem to think is acceptable. The US and its followers consider China automatically the absolute sum of all the world's evils while they're innocent angels. Every option they are open to and it makes this dangerous. The way the Soviets and even the Russians have dealt with this unfortunate behaviour is by ensuring MAD. China may or may not have total MAD capability but it deserves it because it isn't what the western puppet masters want the world to believe ... as flawed and imperfect as China is.
 
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SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
plawolf said:
You do realise that these billionaire bunkers are just scams right?!

Firstly few if any of them are robust enough to survive nuclear strikes, depending on how close one lands. Most of these bunkers only have rudimentary water and air filtration systems, with air intakes especially vulnerable to things like shockwave over pressure, being buried by debris, and/or having plastic bags wrapped over them by other survivors wanting the bunkers open so they can get at the supplies inside etc.

Secondly, even if these bunkers survive, none can allow their occupants to survive for more than a few months or a couple years max. That means they will just be delaying the inevitable. Even if someone was crazy enough to build full Fallout-like vaults, you are looking at spending decades or hundreds of years with just your close and extended family. Enjoy the incest I guess? :S

Thirdly, life in their bunkers will be such a huge and fundamental reduction in the quality of life of the super elite compared to today that many of them will probably swallow their own gun barrels long before they start to run low on supplies. It is most certainly not something anyone in their right might purposefully look to trigger no matter how well they might have prepared.

And lastly, just to seal the deal, China’s underground Great Wall, consisting of thousands to tens of thousands or more miles of tunnel systems, barracks, stores armouries and all the other support systems and supplies needed for huge numbers of people to survive more or less indefinitely; all built deep within mountains and specifically to survive direct nuclear hits; are pretty much the biggest and best chance any society in the world has to survive a fall nuclear Armageddon and subsequent nuclear winter and retain some semblance to what it is pre-war. That means after a full nuclear reset, it will be the Chinese who emerge as a stable and fully functional society as supposed to scattered radiation poisoned wondering bands of savages, and thus the default masters of the new world. That should remove any remaining incentive for lunatics and madmen looking to reset the world, because after the reset it won’t be them or their descendants who will inherit the earth.
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Well, I hope you are right regarding capabilities of the underground Great Wall, and I think every major power should have something like that as a social welfare for their population. In fact, since Biden is talking about jobs and infrastructure, building massive underground survival tunnels under the Rocky Mountains, San Gabriel Mountains in LA, Blue Ridge Mountains for DC civil servants, etc., could indeed create tens and thousands of jobs, while increasing the chance of the USA surviving a nuclear winter (akin to what you said regarding China). Maybe they do exist, but probably only the NSC and DoD staffs with TS know where they are located. Having said that, since we all don't know the exact locations and capabilities of these underground survival bunkers in China and the USA, we might as well assume that a strategic nuclear exchange would be the end of modern civilization as we know it. Maybe a few thousand privileged folks might ride out the nuclear winters in these bunkers and build new kingdoms using their leftover wealth, but they vast majority would still be victims of a war that brought no tangible gains (while being executed by radioactive poisoning). So the question still remains how you can deter privileged elites - who have little or no regard for the livelihood of Joe average commoners - from playing a nuclear game of chess.
 
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Sleepyjam

Junior Member
Registered Member
SpicySichuan said:
Well, I hope you are right regarding capabilities of the underground Great Wall, and I think every major power should have something like that as a social welfare for their population. In fact, since Biden is talking about jobs and infrastructure, building massive underground survival tunnels under the Rocky Mountains, San Gabriel Mountains in LA, Blue Ridge Mountains for DC civil servants, etc., could indeed create tens and thousands of jobs, while increasing the chance of the USA surviving a nuclear winter (akin to what you said regarding China). Maybe they do exist, but probably only the NSC and DoD staffs with TS know where they are located. Having said that, since we all don't know the exact locations and capabilities of these underground survival bunkers in China and the USA, we might as well assume that a strategic nuclear exchange would be the end of modern civilization as we know it. Maybe a few thousand privileged folks might ride out the nuclear winters in these bunkers and build new kingdoms using their leftover wealth, but they vast majority would still be victims of a war that brought no tangible gains (while being executed by radioactive poisoning). So the question still remains how you can deter privileged elites - who have little or no regard for the livelihood of Joe average commoners - from playing a nuclear game of chess.
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That is just wishful thinking, due to the inflated costs in the US it would take an astronomical amount of money to build an underground system similar to China’s. The infrastructure bill isn’t going to cover it. Nobody starts a nuclear war that’s could potentially cause them to lose everything simply because they don’t care about the average Joe. The fact that there hasn’t been a nuclear war after all these year shows that deterrence definitely works.
 
quantumlight

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sleepyjam said:
That is just wishful thinking, due to the inflated costs in the US it would take an astronomical amount of money to build an underground system similar to China’s. The infrastructure bill isn’t going to cover it. Nobody starts a nuclear war that’s could potentially cause them to lose everything simply because they don’t care about the average Joe. The fact that there hasn’t been a nuclear war after all these year shows that deterrence definitely works.
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Didnt the Pentagon lose 23 trillion $ unaccounted for?

Pretty sure that woud have covered it several times over
 
K

Kaldim

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Broccoli said:
Yars is taller but thinner overall missile and nearly 40,000kg lighter.

DF-41 is much more similar to Peacekeeper on it's dimensions.
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A missile based on TEL can't be as heavy as MX. you would know why if you study more about Chinese road system.

Df41 is more similar to Yars but it has a larger payload because Chinese had developed a new type propellant similar to the NEPE-75 used on Trident-d5, as their Russian peers are still working hard on HTPB variations.
And carbon fabric makes the vessel lighter.

Chinese enthusiasts believe that Df41 can carry 3-4 warheads, but not 10 RVs like both Chinese and western medias says...
They call it "the best medium-sized icbm".
 
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