China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
1. There is no reason why an attack on a USN carrier group would be limited to AShBM only. They can spam it with the full spectrum of weapons platforms available at once.
Of course, they must do so. But we shouldn’t assume the other side is unprepared for that, nor will they make it easy for China to shoot at them.

A carrier strike force is designed for offense, relying on surprise as a force multiplier. The whole premise is that they remain undetected prior to launching an attack. If they are denied the element of surprise, then they are doomed to fail. CAGs are too small to go against a prepared enemy. They maintain their element of surprise by moving fast and striking from stand-off range. At the moment, that’s about 2000km without mid-air refueling. That puts them in range of DF-26. If they rely on mid-air refueling (and CVNs have organic refueling platforms) then they should be able to operate outside the ASHBM envelope while posing a credible strike threat to targets near or within the mainland.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
China will have SSKs out there ready silently waiting to sink every ship that comes by before they get into range. And what about Chinese subs that could launch an ASBM and YJs? There will be nowhere within carrier strike range of China that is safe. THAAD will be pointing towards China. All the action will be behind it.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Of course, they must do so. But we shouldn’t assume the other side is unprepared for that, nor will they make it easy for China to shoot at them.

A carrier strike force is designed for offense, relying on surprise as a force multiplier. The whole premise is that they remain undetected prior to launching an attack. If they are denied the element of surprise, then they are doomed to fail. CAGs are too small to go against a prepared enemy. They maintain their element of surprise by moving fast and striking from stand-off range. At the moment, that’s about 2000km without mid-air refueling. That puts them in range of DF-26. If they rely on mid-air refueling (and CVNs have organic refueling platforms) then they should be able to operate outside the ASHBM envelope while posing a credible strike threat to targets near or within the mainland.

Today is the year of 2020 and not 1944 80 years has gone by. The time that CBG can hide in pacific is long gone Today we have satellite that can track moving plane in real time Henri K wrote an excellent paper on Chinese surveillance satellite and Indian think tank did simulate the Chinese surveillance system Both come with conclusion they have enough satellite to track and find CBG
Here in english
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Chinese satellites and maritime surveillance

BY
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Analysis of Chinese reconnaissance satellites and their maritime surveillance capabilities

Historical context

Despite the conquest of mainland China by Mao in 1949, one province still resists the invader. This province is Taiwan, where the Republic of China has taken refuge. Separated from the continent by a hundred kilometers, it has been able to defend its independence thanks to the military support of the United States, which intervened on several occasions. The last episode to date took place in 1996: after the visit of the Taiwanese president to the USA, the People's Republic of China (PRC) responded with large-scale military exercises. The Americans responded with a show of force by sending two aircraft carriers into the region, forcing the PRC to bow.

Determined not to be so impressed in the future, it launched in the years that followed many military programs,
One of the main objectives of these programs is to put an end to the near invulnerability of American aircraft carriers: an aircraft carrier and the associated carrier strike group are extremely well defended. They are also very mobile, which is a problem because before you can threaten them, you must first find them. Since a 20-knot ship can travel more than 800km per day, locating a carrier strike group in the middle of the ocean is therefore a high-risk game of hide and seek.

One of the Chinese solutions to this problem has been to equip itself with a vast satellite intelligence system capable of monitoring the oceans, comprising constellations of electronic intelligence, optical imagery and radar. This article takes you through these constellations and then assesses how these maritime surveillance capabilities provide China with an accurate and comprehensive view of the situation at sea.

I. The ELINT system

Constellation JianBing 8
Satellites: Yaogan 9, 16, 17, 20, 25
Type: ELINT (+ optical & SAR?)
Orbit: 1100x1100km, 63 °

Yaogan 9? (CAST)

This constellation is made up of 3 orbital planes, inclined at 63 °. The satellites are launched there by triplets evolving in tight formation. These characteristics are similar to those of the US satellite constellation NOSS / INTRUDER, which is used to detect, identify and locate radar and telecommunications emissions, especially those from warships. The JB-8 constellation therefore fulfills the same function.

It can only detect ships in this way if they are not in radio silence, which is often the case with warships in times of stress. Even without being in radio silence, you just have to turn off your radar when the satellites pass over the ship (about 20 minutes every 2 hours) so as not to be detected. However, they can probably also detect early warning aircraft launched from an aircraft carrier, which gives a general idea of the carrier's location.

Some sources mention that each triplet would carry an optical and radar system. If so, these systems probably have limited coverage: the 3 satellites of the same triplet fly close to each other, so they have the same viewing angle limits. In addition, it would be more logical to take the time to analyze the electronic intelligence provided by these satellites and then to orient the sensors of other satellites passing after to remove any doubts. However, it cannot be excluded.
5 triplets were launched, the last 3 replacing the first 2 which are starting to get old:
 
Last edited:

KenC

Junior Member
Registered Member
Today is the year of 2020 and not 1944 80 years has gone by. The time that CBG can hide in pacific is long gone Today we have satellite that can track moving plane in real time Henri K wrote an excellent paper on Chinese surveillance satellite and Indian think tank did simulate the Chinese surveillance system Both come with conclusion they have enough satellite to track and find CBG
Here in english

I'm sure China has a naval intel unit that knows the current or approximate location of all US carriers. They will have the Goafen and Yaoguan satelites, spy drones, civilian fleet info coupled with extensive use of AI / big data to help in determining the locations of ships. In sensitive area of the South China Sea, the degree of monitoring is even greater.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I do not know anything about this stuff, yet I am sure of the answer here.

The carrier killer missile is too fast at terminal phase to be intercepted.

Just watch a hockey game. The slower player rarely can ever land a hit on a faster player. Here, we are talking about the faster player only has one or two steps on the slower player.

The carrier killer missile is two or three times faster than the interceptor missile, and that we still have to account for minute variations to the flight path due to wind or turbulence.

If the missile force knows where that ship is, it is gone and will be wiped off the face of the map.

Speed only matters when the approaches differ. For example if the interceptor is trying to catch its target then it needs obviously to have superior speed and range at the very least. Here the case is entirely different and more similar to let's say an ASAT missile destroying a LEO satellite traveling MANY times faster than the kinetic kill warhead. How is that done if there is such a variance in speed. Because velocity allows for interception. So with SM-6 and AShBM, it is far from impossible just considering speed and the trajectory of the warhead.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Speed only matters when the approaches differ. For example if the interceptor is trying to catch its target then it needs obviously to have superior speed and range at the very least. Here the case is entirely different and more similar to let's say an ASAT missile destroying a LEO satellite traveling MANY times faster than the kinetic kill warhead. How is that done if there is such a variance in speed. Because velocity allows for interception. So with SM-6 and AShBM, it is far from impossible just considering speed and the trajectory of the warhead.
A LEO satellite is 100% on a ballistic trajectory though so once you have the orbit fixed there's very little lateral movement of the target you have to account for.

A manoeuvring AShBM warhead is going to be all over the place just from the fact that it's constantly adjusting its trajectory to home in on the target, never mind if it's doing any active avoidance.

It's not a problem that can't be overcome, but I suspect at this time there's no platform with the right mix of performance charaistics because no one took it seriously enough until now. To fill in this hole will require many years, in the mean time what are you going to do in the western pacific?

And that's not taking into account wild cards like DF-ZF. Who's to say there won't be an AShBM version of DF-17, if it's not already capable of being used this way.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
SM-6 is a long range SAM. Completely wrong weapon to use at such short range. 3km is probably beyond its minimum engagement range, given that it’s launched with a booster. Not to mention that it is not designed to engage hypersonic targets. While its radar might see the BM, its flight control loops are not capable of guiding it close in enough for a kill.

On the other hand, the SM-3 would be the right weapon to engage DF-21 and DF-26. It will attempt an exoatmospheric kill up to 2500km away from the AEGIS launch platform, with the latest variant.

The 3km was just an example of some arbitrarily close point. SM-3 for sure is the main weapon and useful since they'll be defending the carrier which is riding next to it rather than boosting to catch a ballistic missile who's target is thousands of km away. SM-3 designed for this and I suspect why China has positions AShBM so far from the coast, the warheads are within the atmosphere when the SM-3 is being boosted. They cannot see the launch or a great part of its climb by the time AEGIS stops and targets the rocket, the SM-3 cannot catch it or meet the warhead outside the atmosphere which is what the SM-3 is supposed to do anyway.

I'm assuming here that the "warhead" payload on the AShBM would have come back into atmosphere well before it reaches the airspace of the coastline. The specific trajectory is secret unless the Americans were watching it closely enough. I suspect it's using a Qian Xueshen trajectory pattern but can also use the Von Braun trajectory. If this is the case, it's even harder to intercept. The Qian Xueshen trajectory for hypersonic glide and ballistics is a true assassin's mace against such targets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: W20

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Oh you mean the one that China was able to jam immediately after it went online... Lets not forget the obsolete Seersucker that got past AWACs, AEGIS and Patriot sensors to strike Kuwait City without being seen flying over the unobstructed Persian Gulf during the Gulf War...

I can't find English literature that says this was jammed in the past. Do you have link/s?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top