China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

Don't interpret it that way. We're all just throwing in information for debate.
 
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Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

IMO the current level of nuclear arsenal of 200-300 warheads are enough. there is a changing in US police of reducing the no. of nuclear weapons in the world. They have realized, why produce a weapon that you can never use and spent all that money maintain them. Instead the US is focusing on conventional strike capabilities (e.g. X-51 etc).
As they start to stand on moral high ground, they will seek to wipe out the only credible deterrence capability in countries like Russia, China and any other hostile countries towards the west by asking them to reduce the no. of nuclear weapons.
China can avoid this situation by maintain the current level of WMD, and spent the money on other theologies such as rocketry, nuclear reactors and flue rod production capability. This way the civilian can benefit for them also China can have an up to date nuclear weapon manufacturing capability.
Although I have to agree increase in the number of warheads is a very tempting way to deter not just US but also all the other hostile countries around China, but I believe it will not be a very good long term solution. Because it will escalate other countries to produce more weapons (China is bordered with 3 nuclear capable countries, can you name any other countries face such treat?) and worse still it may drive countries to seek help for US, which would be the last thing China want to see.

Based on the situation you describe China to be in, it makes MAD an even more logical deterrence for China to have. Having and maintaining a MAD-capable nuclear force is the cheapest and most effective stopgap measure for China while it tries to catch up on developing its conventional forces. As part of this strategy it should also be developing ABM technologies same as the US and other advanced militaries.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

China has never pursued the MAD capacity, Deng thought MAD was irrational, he once said: "why do they (soviet & america) need so many nukes, they cannot eat those, can they?"

but China may have more nukes than the west has estimated, according to the biography by general Zhang Aiping who had been in charge of china's defense industry for more than three decades: in the early 1980s, when china started to build nuclear power stations, he received a report saying that there's uranium shortage problem. zhang said: "shortage? you've been complaining about uranium surplus all along?" and they explained to him that there's too much weapon grade uranium but not enough low grade uranium for power generating.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

I thought I kept another article in which it was suggested that China could easily have far more nuclear warheadsthan is currently assumed meanwhile this opinion piece from the Diplomat is worth a quick glance

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Some analysts suggest China’s vast network of underground tunnels is evidence it is undertaking a massive build-up of its nuclear arsenal. Actually, China has reason to worry about the US.


It’s tempting to dismiss the story in Monday’s Wall Street Journal suggesting that China may have around 3,000 nuclear warheads as the kind of reporting that could only be considered ‘fair and balanced’ on Fox News, and so just ignore it. After all, as long ago as 2004, Jeffrey Lewis tracked down the origin of media reports cited by the Journal that China has 2,350 nuclear weapons. Embarrassingly, the source is an online essay based on bogus US intelligence information that was posted by a Singapore University student.

Moreover, it hardly seems worth wasting time explaining why it’s invalid to estimate the size of China’s contemporary arsenal by taking a 1960s US intelligence report that predicted how many warheads China would have in 1973, and then assuming that it has built up at a constant rate since then. What does make the article worth engaging with, however, is its inability to even try to understand China’s strategic challenges, and why it might go to some fairly extreme lengths to try to solve them.

The purpose of the Journal article is to raise awareness of China’s nuclear modernization and the ‘immense strategic leverage’ it would supposedly give China in a war. Now, I certainly don’t claim to know why China is modernizing its nuclear force. China’s modernization may be offensively orientated. Perhaps Beijing really does wish to change the status quo in its favour by force of nuclear arms. The ‘facts’ collected by the Journal, however, provide no evidence—for or against—these propositions.

The article focuses on the vast network of underground tunnels, the ‘Underground Great Wall,’ which China has built to protect its nuclear forces. ‘For decades,’ writes Bret Stephens in that knowing tone adopted by the Journal’s finest, ‘nuclear experts have understood that the key to “winning” a nuclear exchange is to have an effective second-strike capability, which in turn requires both a sizable and survivable force.’

Wrong. A survivable second-strike capability is the key to not losing a nuclear exchange. It ensures that an adversary can’t disarm you and then use nuclear threats to bend you to his will. Even if China had 3,000 warheads all mounted on intercontinental ballistic missiles—which it doesn’t—it could still not disarm the United States. Apart from the inability of inaccurate Chinese missile to destroy hardened American silos, the four or more US submarines (each of which is armed with about 100 warheads) that are at sea at any given time ensure the invulnerability of the US deterrent.

By contrast, China does have reasonable grounds to fear that the United States is seeking a war-winning nuclear capability. The United States deploys something just shy of 2,000 strategic warheads, with more in reserve. Its delivery systems are exquisitely accurate. It’s developing conventional weapons designed to hunt down mobile missiles. And, on top of that, Washington has consistently refused requests from Beijing to explicitly state that the United States isn’t seeking the ability to eliminate China’s nuclear forces.

Whether China’s fears are justified or not is irrelevant (although, for the record, I think they are exaggerated). The point here is that they are understandable, especially from a military planning perspective, and most likely genuine. In fact, the crowning irony is that those who argue that the United States should pursue a war-winning capability against China (some of whom regularly opine in the Journal) generally show the least recognition that this would concern China and prompt to it to take countermeasures.

This brings us onto the Underground Great Wall. Given the extent of Chinese fears, the idea that Beijing might build 3,000 miles of tunnels to protect a small nuclear force should not be beyond belief. After all, it’s not exactly unprecedented for China to try to protect itself from external threats by building a gargantuan defence line, it is? Phillip Karber, a Georgetown University professor who conducted most of the research on which the Journal article is based, questions the scale of the project. He asks why China needs such a long network of tunnels if it only has the 300 or so warheads estimated by the US intelligence community. To answer this question, Karber should examine the United States’ own nuclear history.

Back in the late 1970s, many in the United States expressed deep concerns that the Soviet Union was opening up a ‘window of vulnerability’; at some point in the 1980s—at the moment of ‘maximum’ danger—the Kremlin would supposedly use its awesome force of land-based ballistic missiles (which, even then, were much more accurate than Chinese weapons are today) to annihilate US missiles, rendering the United States defenceless.

One American response was the MX missile (later renamed the Peacekeeper, although, for some reason, the new name never caught on). The original plan was to put each new missile in one silo. However, worried about the vulnerability of silos, Congress blocked this plan in 1976. Three years later, after the US military examined more than 40 options, President Jimmy Carter eventually approved an alternative: the ‘shell game.’ The United States planned to construct 4,600 silos for the 200 missiles it was going build—yes, that’s right, 23 silos for each missile. The missiles would have regularly been shuttled back and forth between different silos so the Soviet Union wouldn’t have known where any of them were. Thus, if it had wanted to disarm the United States, Moscow would have had to target every single silo, requiring a staggering number of warheads (9,200, in fact, if it’s assumed two warheads would have been assigned to each silo).

4,600 silos to protect 200 missiles…Not completely dissimilar to the Underground Great Wall, is it?

In the event, the shell game was never constructed. President Ronald Reagan rejected it in favour of the traditional one-silo-per-missile model. But, had the United States—like China today—not have had to bother with the ‘inconvenience’ of democracy, then perhaps not even the Journal could have professed such amazement at Chinese tunnelling.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

one Video speaks louder than thousand words. China never stop digging since the founding of the republic."Store grain and dig tunnel" is old Chinese proverb.

Anyone who said China only had 200 missile must delude themselves

Deng admonition might be right back then because China was poor and money better spend to improve the living standard as well the chance of war is almost nil. But nothing is written in the stone circumstances change

good compilation of CCTV 7 video from Georgetown university first posted by Gordonchang

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!
 
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defaultuser1

Banned Idiot
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

China has never pursued the MAD capacity, Deng thought MAD was irrational, he once said: "why do they (soviet & america) need so many nukes, they cannot eat those, can they?"

but China may have more nukes than the west has estimated, according to the biography by general Zhang Aiping who had been in charge of china's defense industry for more than three decades: in the early 1980s, when china started to build nuclear power stations, he received a report saying that there's uranium shortage problem. zhang said: "shortage? you've been complaining about uranium surplus all along?" and they explained to him that there's too much weapon grade uranium but not enough low grade uranium for power generating.
If China truly only has 200 nuclear weapons, it is truly in a bad spot. No country can be safe from western imperialism without 1,000 nuclear weapons with worldwide strike capability. Look at all the small, stable, functioning nations the CIA has infiltrated and overthrown in the past 50 years. Imagine if any of these had nuclear capability. Would the CIA dare try to overthrow them through nefarious means?

What Deng failed to realize is that the leaders of the world are often psychopathic. They will always have enough to eat and simply do not care if the country they control is sent into a nuclear holocaust, as long as they themselves can gain something from it. Unlike the Chinese, western leaders will instigate wars for profit, and they will send millions of "their" citizens to their deaths without a care in the world. This is the same mistake made during the Qing dynasty by Qianlong. It was simply assumed that the west would accept the local laws as a matter of morality. Britain's gunboats soon proved otherwise.

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Thesisus

New Member
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

I thought I kept another article in which it was suggested that China could easily have far more nuclear warheadsthan is currently assumed meanwhile this opinion piece from the Diplomat is worth a quick glance

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Some analysts suggest China’s vast network of underground tunnels is evidence it is undertaking a massive build-up of its nuclear arsenal. Actually, China has reason to worry about the US.


It’s tempting to dismiss the story in Monday’s Wall Street Journal suggesting that China may have around 3,000 nuclear warheads as the kind of reporting that could only be considered ‘fair and balanced’ on Fox News, and so just ignore it. After all, as long ago as 2004, Jeffrey Lewis tracked down the origin of media reports cited by the Journal that China has 2,350 nuclear weapons. Embarrassingly, the source is an online essay based on bogus US intelligence information that was posted by a Singapore University student.

Moreover, it hardly seems worth wasting time explaining why it’s invalid to estimate the size of China’s contemporary arsenal by taking a 1960s US intelligence report that predicted how many warheads China would have in 1973, and then assuming that it has built up at a constant rate since then. What does make the article worth engaging with, however, is its inability to even try to understand China’s strategic challenges, and why it might go to some fairly extreme lengths to try to solve them.

The purpose of the Journal article is to raise awareness of China’s nuclear modernization and the ‘immense strategic leverage’ it would supposedly give China in a war. Now, I certainly don’t claim to know why China is modernizing its nuclear force. China’s modernization may be offensively orientated. Perhaps Beijing really does wish to change the status quo in its favour by force of nuclear arms. The ‘facts’ collected by the Journal, however, provide no evidence—for or against—these propositions.

The article focuses on the vast network of underground tunnels, the ‘Underground Great Wall,’ which China has built to protect its nuclear forces. ‘For decades,’ writes Bret Stephens in that knowing tone adopted by the Journal’s finest, ‘nuclear experts have understood that the key to “winning” a nuclear exchange is to have an effective second-strike capability, which in turn requires both a sizable and survivable force.’

Wrong. A survivable second-strike capability is the key to not losing a nuclear exchange. It ensures that an adversary can’t disarm you and then use nuclear threats to bend you to his will. Even if China had 3,000 warheads all mounted on intercontinental ballistic missiles—which it doesn’t—it could still not disarm the United States. Apart from the inability of inaccurate Chinese missile to destroy hardened American silos, the four or more US submarines (each of which is armed with about 100 warheads) that are at sea at any given time ensure the invulnerability of the US deterrent.

By contrast, China does have reasonable grounds to fear that the United States is seeking a war-winning nuclear capability. The United States deploys something just shy of 2,000 strategic warheads, with more in reserve. Its delivery systems are exquisitely accurate. It’s developing conventional weapons designed to hunt down mobile missiles. And, on top of that, Washington has consistently refused requests from Beijing to explicitly state that the United States isn’t seeking the ability to eliminate China’s nuclear forces.

Whether China’s fears are justified or not is irrelevant (although, for the record, I think they are exaggerated). The point here is that they are understandable, especially from a military planning perspective, and most likely genuine. In fact, the crowning irony is that those who argue that the United States should pursue a war-winning capability against China (some of whom regularly opine in the Journal) generally show the least recognition that this would concern China and prompt to it to take countermeasures.

This brings us onto the Underground Great Wall. Given the extent of Chinese fears, the idea that Beijing might build 3,000 miles of tunnels to protect a small nuclear force should not be beyond belief. After all, it’s not exactly unprecedented for China to try to protect itself from external threats by building a gargantuan defence line, it is? Phillip Karber, a Georgetown University professor who conducted most of the research on which the Journal article is based, questions the scale of the project. He asks why China needs such a long network of tunnels if it only has the 300 or so warheads estimated by the US intelligence community. To answer this question, Karber should examine the United States’ own nuclear history.

Back in the late 1970s, many in the United States expressed deep concerns that the Soviet Union was opening up a ‘window of vulnerability’; at some point in the 1980s—at the moment of ‘maximum’ danger—the Kremlin would supposedly use its awesome force of land-based ballistic missiles (which, even then, were much more accurate than Chinese weapons are today) to annihilate US missiles, rendering the United States defenceless.

One American response was the MX missile (later renamed the Peacekeeper, although, for some reason, the new name never caught on). The original plan was to put each new missile in one silo. However, worried about the vulnerability of silos, Congress blocked this plan in 1976. Three years later, after the US military examined more than 40 options, President Jimmy Carter eventually approved an alternative: the ‘shell game.’ The United States planned to construct 4,600 silos for the 200 missiles it was going build—yes, that’s right, 23 silos for each missile. The missiles would have regularly been shuttled back and forth between different silos so the Soviet Union wouldn’t have known where any of them were. Thus, if it had wanted to disarm the United States, Moscow would have had to target every single silo, requiring a staggering number of warheads (9,200, in fact, if it’s assumed two warheads would have been assigned to each silo).

4,600 silos to protect 200 missiles…Not completely dissimilar to the Underground Great Wall, is it?

In the event, the shell game was never constructed. President Ronald Reagan rejected it in favour of the traditional one-silo-per-missile model. But, had the United States—like China today—not have had to bother with the ‘inconvenience’ of democracy, then perhaps not even the Journal could have professed such amazement at Chinese tunnelling.

In the article, one of the things the author is saying is that because China's nuclear missiles are not nearly as accurate as the US or even the Sovients back then, therefore, China should be worried.

My question is whether the inaccuracy is true? And also, isn't nuclear missiles, as part of the deterence, aimed at cities as well, and not just silos? So even if the Chinese missiles are not very accurate, the deterence effect is still there?
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

If China truly only has 200 nuclear weapons, it is truly in a bad spot. No country can be safe from western imperialism without 1,000 nuclear weapons with worldwide strike capability. Look at all the small, stable, functioning nations the CIA has infiltrated and overthrown in the past 50 years. Imagine if any of these had nuclear capability. Would the CIA dare try to overthrow them through nefarious means?

What Deng failed to realize is that the leaders of the world are often psychopathic. They will always have enough to eat and simply do not care if the country they control is sent into a nuclear holocaust, as long as they themselves can gain something from it. Unlike the Chinese, western leaders will instigate wars for profit, and they will send millions of "their" citizens to their deaths without a care in the world. This is the same mistake made during the Qing dynasty by Qianlong. It was simply assumed that the west would accept the local laws as a matter of morality. Britain's gunboats soon proved otherwise.

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agree, to have too few or to have your adversaries under-estimate your strength are dangerous.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Re: Does China need more Nuclear Weapons ?

Just wondering why China disclosed its vast network of underground tunnels in 2009 ? what is the main intention ?
 
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