China and Hongkong

vesicles said:

Everyone that I know who has been to Hong Kong and Taiwan says they actually see the true Chinese culture and value there. More so in Taiwan than Hong Kong.

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I have yet to be in Taiwan, but I don't see how HK has a lesser Chinese-rich culture. Pushing all the financial and modernity aside, we still possess most, if not all, of our cultures Canton style. But then again I'd agree with solar that it's also fallicious to say China possess less, because China may still retain certain that neither HK nor Taiwan can have(and vice versa)

kyanges said:

It's like this: The Chinese government slaps the Confucius name on an international outreach program, but how Confucian is the Communist government, or Chinese society on the mainland? Or rather, how many people really quote the Analects? The Peking Opera masters may be on the mainland, but is it a commonly enjoyed art form, or is it a niche recreation enjoyed by only a relative few? Similarly, Phoenix Legend may indeed be more rooted in traditional Chinese music, but does the majority listen to this, or do they listen to that generic Asian pop music?

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I would say, for Confucius, very few people quote him, but certain aspects of his philosophy is deeply, deeply ingrained in the Chinese mindset. Filial piety, for example.

Pekin Opera: while it is mainly enjoyed by the older folks, its presence is pervasive enough in China that I would say it definitely is a commonly enjoyed art form. It might not be as popular as S.H.E. among the younger folks, but artists like 李玉刚 certainly are doing a great job of reinventing the art.

Phoenix Legend: easily one of the hottest bands in China right now.

solarz said:

I disagree very strongly.

Where do masters of Pekin Opera reside? Can you find large followings of Yue （越剧）, Hu （沪剧）, and Huang Mei（黄梅戏）Operas in Hong Kong or Taiwan?

When the Canadian

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wanted to learn Xiang-Shen （相声）, where did he go?

Culinary-wise, where do you find the best 小笼包？Pekin Duck? 麻辣火锅？BBQ'd Lamb Skewers? How important is 饺子 in HK or Taiwanese culture?

Who's a more influential director: Zhang Yimou or Ang Li?

Look at HK and Taiwan pop. Then look at mainlander pop groups/singers like Phoenix Legend （凤凰传奇），慕容晓晓，徐千雅, 李玉刚: which musical culture is more rooted in traditional chinese music?

So how exactly can Taiwan and Hong Kong claim to have "truer" Chinese culture?

---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

I would say that HK and Taiwan cultures are a part of Chinese culture, but only a part, and far from being the entire panorama that is Chinese culture.

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That doesn't really show anything. The culture of a country is not simply expressed through its art forms and celebrities. In this case, we are talking about something much deeper. It is the social mentality, the way people think and feel towards things.

Since everyone here mentioned Confucius, then let's use him as an example. What separates the Chinese civilization from the rest of the big civilizations is the emphasis on education, standard education for all citizens. The Chinese created a system that gave the commoners a chance to succeed in life, which did not exist in the rest of the world for millennials to come. A huge part of this system is the desire for knowledge and ESPECIALLY respect for your mentor, and more importantly, the respect for academics.

These days in mainland China, academics are no longer respected. For example, in a cocktail party for VIPs from all social sectors, let's say in Hong Kong and Taiwan, the poor professor would get much more respect and envy than a corporate executive. But in mainland China, even a lottery winner that used to a janitor would get more attention than a Nobel winning prof.

Another important differing world view is the lack of conscience. In the rest of Greater China, if someone get robbed or randomly attacked, people would jump out to help. The first thought of mainland bystanders is to back away and try to not get involved.

Although Chinese culture never really had strong central religious institutions, there were always strong religious influences from Buddhisms and Taoism. But in today's mainland China, it's very different. People are almost completely either agnostic or simply anti-religion. Temples and religious institutions are shunned. But if you go to Taiwan or HongKong, Buddhist temples or Tao Temples are still everywhere. They enjoy religious freedoms and are still worshiped by majority of the population. For example, if you had bad luck outside of mainland, people would say their karma is not good, they say they have to do something to compensate for it. Usually the words follow along the traditional religious values. But if you say that in mainland China, people would think you're nuts.

People in mainland don't care about Fengshui when they build houses. This view would is considered to be ludicrous for people from outside mainland.

---------- Post added at 03:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

If any of you ever been to mainland and Hongkong or Taiwan, you'll notice that mainlanders no longer value books. Bookstores are no longer so lucrative. People have no more respect for books. But in Taiwan, bookstores are still very much the way they were hundreds of years ago. They still hold very high place in people's minds.

CottageLV said:

That doesn't really show anything. The culture of a country is not simply expressed through its art forms and celebrities. In this case, we are talking about something much deeper. It is the social mentality, the way people think and feel towards things.

Since everyone here mentioned Confucius, then let's use him as an example. What separates the Chinese civilization from the rest of the big civilizations is the emphasis on education, standard education for all citizens. The Chinese created a system that gave the commoners a chance to succeed in life, which did not exist in the rest of the world for millennials to come. A huge part of this system is the desire for knowledge and ESPECIALLY respect for your mentor, and more importantly, the respect for academics.

These days in mainland China, academics are no longer respected. For example, in a cocktail party for VIPs from all social sectors, let's say in Hong Kong and Taiwan, the poor professor would get much more respect and envy than a corporate executive. But in mainland China, even a lottery winner that used to a janitor would get more attention than a Nobel winning prof.

Another important differing world view is the lack of conscience. In the rest of Greater China, if someone get robbed or randomly attacked, people would jump out to help. The first thought of mainland bystanders is to back away and try to not get involved.

Although Chinese culture never really had strong central religious institutions, there were always strong religious influences from Buddhisms and Taoism. But in today's mainland China, it's very different. People are almost completely either agnostic or simply anti-religion. Temples and religious institutions are shunned. But if you go to Taiwan or HongKong, Buddhist temples or Tao Temples are still everywhere. They enjoy religious freedoms and are still worshiped by majority of the population. For example, if you had bad luck outside of mainland, people would say their karma is not good, they say they have to do something to compensate for it. Usually the words follow along the traditional religious values. But if you say that in mainland China, people would think you're nuts.

People in mainland don't care about Fengshui when they build houses. This view would is considered to be ludicrous for people from outside mainland.

---------- Post added at 03:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

If any of you ever been to mainland and Hongkong or Taiwan, you'll notice that mainlanders no longer value books. Bookstores are no longer so lucrative. People have no more respect for books. But in Taiwan, bookstores are still very much the way they were hundreds of years ago. They still hold very high place in people's minds.

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Perhaps it's not THAT bad in mainland China..but then indeed you did got it right was the whole social values thing, which indeed could be well argued that HK would enjoy a higher preservance of it. (at least no cultural revolution to cannibalize the chinese culture)

antiterror13 said:

What actually the direct financial benefit for China having Hongkong ?, do Hongkong Citizen pay tax to China ?

China spend quite a bit of $$$ to protect Hongkong (Hongkong garrison ?)

Or Hongkong just enjoy free protection from China and let China "waste" it's time for foreign affairs and Hongkong people just concentrate doing business without paying any tax to China ... NICE

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There is just a slight problem with that statement.

When the Basic Law was negotiated, whether China should maintain a garrison in HK was a big point of contention. China insisted because they see this as a direct symbol of their exercising sovereignty. It is in any case incorrect to state that HK contributes nothing - HK contributes land for the garrison and the firing range, and land is extraordinarily valuable in HK. There is for example a piece of prime real estate I see in Kowloon Tong on my way to work every day which is worth easily hundreds of millions, and millions more in land tax.

Let's face it, if the HK garrison went home tomorrow. nobody would dare to attack HK anyway, since that would mean war with China. Back in the old days there was a garrison because the British wanted a base and wanted a (very theoretical since 1949) ability to face off against China. That is no longer the case, and there is no logical reason to have a base in HK apart from a demonstration of sovereignty (there is nothing wrong with that).

HK does not need nor want (certainly after 1989) the garrison, so it's a case of China insisting upon a garrison and offering to pay for it, rather than HK enjoying free protection.

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CottageLV said:

hong kong has the most traditional Chinese culture and world views. It remains untainted from the communist revolution. It very much shares common culture with Taiwan and Macau, all of them kept true Chinese culture throughout the 20s century. Although mainland China claims to be the legitimate successor to the proper Chinese heritage, it is really not true. Everything had been changed with the installation of a communist system and especially with the cultural revolution, nothing remains the same.

The number one reason that the PRC leaders kept HongKong so independent is to maintain its identity as a offshore banking centre. It's a bridge between PRC and the West. Although Shanghai is quickly advancing, due to its nature as a Red Chinese city, the West still doesn't have as much trust in it as they do to HongKong. HongKong serves as an economic buffer zone.

Even if HongKong is completely annexed as a regular city, it still will maintain its identity as a financial hub.

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Hong Kong is about as similar to Taiwan as it is to China.

All this talk about how HK/ Taiwan is the bastion of Chinese culture needs to stop. There is some truth in that due to the lack of direct devastation a la GPCR, but what the PRC destroyed with rod and rock, the modernised Chinese societies destroyed with modernity. Nobody wears Republican style dress anymore, HK has more loanwords from Japan than China does (and that's saying something), Chinese opera and other folk arts are dying their last gasps - at least China pours a lot of state money into it to keep them alive.

Anyway, the sheer size of the PRC also means that they simply keep more of China's culture even if they destroyed more proportionally.

If people want to insist upon this point in future, I strongly suggest that they make a reasoned argument rather than stating it as if it were true without any support.

---------- Post added at 01:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 AM ----------

Lion said:

Are you sure its that much?

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Considering it is a few times above the total global supply, I am sure he's got trillion and billion confused.

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kyanges said:

vesicles' post was a little too vague to really argue for or against, but solarz's response did get me thinking.

It seems dangerous to start listing how many traditional things a culture has to assert its authenticity because that's sort of a shallow take on culture. It's also important to study how relevant a particular cultural expression is to the whole society at the time.

It's like this: The Chinese government slaps the Confucius name on an international outreach program, but how Confucian is the Communist government, or Chinese society on the mainland? Or rather, how many people really quote the Analects? The Peking Opera masters may be on the mainland, but is it a commonly enjoyed art form, or is it a niche recreation enjoyed by only a relative few? Similarly, Phoenix Legend may indeed be more rooted in traditional Chinese music, but does the majority listen to this, or do they listen to that generic Asian pop music?

I agree with what solarz said here:

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Phoenix Legend (and lots of others) is EXTREMELY big in China. 最炫民族风 - I need say no more.

On the quoting of Traditional Culture thing... you'll find more people quoting manga in Hong Kong than the Analects. And it won't be a small difference. It'd be orders of magnitude. If you look at the Chinese and HK curricula you'll find that there's about equal emphasis on the old things, as it were, but neither side are going to go back to the baguwen days. Traditional Chinese thought is going to go the way of theology and Plato in the West (i.e. still studied and admired but no longer the central focal point of academic learning). That's modernity for you.