China and Argentina re Falklands/Malvinas

kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
b787 said:
I do not think you understand the problem Argentina will face, since even for the people of Argentina it is not declassify the agreement, do you think England or the USA will see it as a peaceful program?

see:
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Then they need to lobby for the station's removal if that is indeed the will of the argentine people however that is an internal issue within the people and the government of Argentina.

The fact remains that the station was put there legally between the two government of these two countries.


This is not very different than the mistral ships between Russian and France. It was purchase legally but due to both interl and external pressure French reneged but they did it legally as well and had to compensate for breaching of contract.
 
JayBird

JayBird

Junior Member
kwaigonegin said:
Then they need to lobby for the station's removal if that is indeed the will of the argentine people however that is an internal issue within the people and the government of Argentina.

The fact remains that the station was put there legally between the two government of these two countries.


This is not very different than the mistral ships between Russian and France. It was purchase legally but due to both interl and external pressure French reneged but they did it legally as well and had to compensate for breaching of contract.
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Exactly..... This has nothing to do with the sovereignty of Argentina. It was just an excuse and propaganda to get support of the people to reject the site.

It was simply some sectors within Argentinian do not wish to have a Chinese infrastructure inside Argentina. They are worry it might get them on the wrong side of the U.S and hurt their interest in other areas. China really done nothing wrong in this case. If the Argentina government do not wish to have the station there, there would not be one.
 
b787

b787

Captain
kwaigonegin said:
Then they need to lobby for the station's removal if that is indeed the will of the argentine people however that is an internal issue within the people and the government of Argentina.

The fact remains that the station was put there legally between the two government of these two countries.


This is not very different than the mistral ships between Russian and France. It was purchase legally but due to both interl and external pressure French reneged but they did it legally as well and had to compensate for breaching of contract.
Click to expand...
You still do not understand, in the history of Latin America, Europe and the US have a lot of saying, why? consider that around 50% of the whole population of Latin America is European in origin and the rest is a mixture of native Americans, Europeans and Africans, these populations are mostly Portuguese and Spanish but there is a lot of Italians in countries like Uruguay and Argentina, these populations are very loyal to Europe and the US, however recently Brazil wants to become the core nation of South America.
Argentina has been rejected by NATO and the IMF, this made Argentina strike the deal with China, plus the irrefutable fact Chinese investment has been promised to Argentina, Argentina will respect the deal as long as a politician like Cristina Elisabet Fernández de Kirchner is in power, however if some sectors in Argentina think China is not giving so many advantages in terms of Industry, investment will yield to American and European pressure.

And i can assure you something Europe and the US will do whatever they can to eject the Chinese base from South America and they will do it via all the politicians who want better relations with the US and Europe.
Believe me Europe and the US will not rest until they can make Argentina reconsider.

Argentina will keep the base as long as it has a lot of benefits and it helps Argentina as a bargain tool with the US and Europe to easy pressure from England and even as a bargain tool to regain the Malvinas/Falklands.

And that is the whole reason China is there, Argentina is using China as a bargaining tool with the West
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
b787 said:
You still do not understand, in the history of Latin America, Europe and the US have a lot of saying, why? consider that around 50% of the whole population of Latin America is European in origin and the rest is a mixture of native Americans, Europeans and Africans, these populations are mostly Portuguese and Spanish but there is a lot of Italians in countries like Uruguay and Argentina, these populations are very loyal to Europe and the US, however recently Brazil wants to become the core nation of South America.
Argentina has been rejected by NATO and the IMF, this made Argentina strike the deal with China, plus the irrefutable fact Chinese investment has been promised to Argentina, Argentina will respect the deal as long as a politician like Cristina Elisabet Fernández de Kirchner is in power, however if some sectors in Argentina think China is not giving so many advantages in terms of Industry, investment will yield to American and European pressure.

And i can assure you something Europe and the US will do whatever they can to eject the Chinese base from South America and they will do it via all the politicians who want better relations with the US and Europe.
Believe me Europe and the US will not rest until they can make Argentina reconsider.

Argentina will keep the base as long as it has a lot of benefits and it helps Argentina as a bargain tool with the US and Europe to easy pressure from England and even as a bargain tool to regain the Malvinas/Falklands.

And that is the whole reason China is there, Argentina is using China as a bargaining tool with the West
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I think I understand your point better now, but I would point out that:

1- Argentine may not be the only country that would be willing to host a Chinese satellite tracking station. China may very well have other options, and the Argentinian government may be well aware of that.

2- US and Europe are not the only states with diplomatic leverage.
 
D

delft

Brigadier
b787 said:
You still do not understand, in the history of Latin America, Europe and the US have a lot of saying, why? consider that around 50% of the whole population of Latin America is European in origin and the rest is a mixture of native Americans, Europeans and Africans, these populations are mostly Portuguese and Spanish but there is a lot of Italians in countries like Uruguay and Argentina, these populations are very loyal to Europe and the US, however recently Brazil wants to become the core nation of South America.
Argentina has been rejected by NATO and the IMF, this made Argentina strike the deal with China, plus the irrefutable fact Chinese investment has been promised to Argentina, Argentina will respect the deal as long as a politician like Cristina Elisabet Fernández de Kirchner is in power, however if some sectors in Argentina think China is not giving so many advantages in terms of Industry, investment will yield to American and European pressure.

And i can assure you something Europe and the US will do whatever they can to eject the Chinese base from South America and they will do it via all the politicians who want better relations with the US and Europe.
Believe me Europe and the US will not rest until they can make Argentina reconsider.

Argentina will keep the base as long as it has a lot of benefits and it helps Argentina as a bargain tool with the US and Europe to easy pressure from England and even as a bargain tool to regain the Malvinas/Falklands.

And that is the whole reason China is there, Argentina is using China as a bargaining tool with the West
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Do these politician have more regard for the interests of US and European countries? Are these politicians corrupt?
 
b787

b787

Captain
delft said:
Do these politician have more regard for the interests of US and European countries? Are these politicians corrupt?
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Of course some are corrupt, and some are vassals of western countries, but what do you prefer, keep your nation out of two nations confrontation and become that target of nations that share some common culture and ethnicity with your people and you, or simply just keep China as a commercial friend without alienating England and NATO whose members are among them Italy and Spain that represent the larger part of your roots?

For Argentina will be better just stay out of the Chinese-American rivalry, and better just buy cars, computers, even commercial aircraft from China rather than do business that have little value for them and just jeopardize their national security. the base is not even paying taxes and they are only entitled to 2 hours and 40 minutes a day as visitors.

I am not against commerce with China but it is better for Latin America to keep American, Russian and Chinese bases out of our lands, simply because that is not in our interests
 
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JayBird

JayBird

Junior Member
b787 said:
Of course some are corrupt, and some are vassals of western countries, but what do you prefer, keep your nation out of two nations confrontation and become that target of nations that share some common culture and ethnicity with your people and you, or simply just keep China as a commercial friend without alienating England and NATO whose members are among them Italy and Spain that represent the larger part of your roots?

For Argentina will be better just stay out of the Chinese-American rivalry, and better just buy cars, computers, even commercial aircraft from China rather than do business that have little value for them and just jeopardize their national security. the base is not even paying taxes and they are only entitled to 2 hours and 40 minutes a day as visitors.

I am not against commerce with China but it is better for Latin America to keep American, Russian and Chinese bases out of our lands, simply because that is not in our interests
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Agree or disagree, now that's a honest opinion from you I can respect and appreciate. And not the sovereignty of Argentina you were referring to in eariler posts. ;)
 
b787

b787

Captain
JayBird said:
Agree or disagree, now that's a honest opinion from you I can respect and appreciate. And not the sovereignty of Argentina you were referring to in eariler posts. ;)
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China as a commercial partner has good and bad things, but at least it has something i like, in Mexico some Chinese companies sell parts to Mexican companies, so in turn they can start building their own products, there is a brand in Mexico that makes and design motorcycles, their first models had up to 90% Chinese made parts, today they are building them with more parts in Mexico and the design is made in Mexico, i mean that is a good industrial model of cooperation;, Brazil`s satellites is another one, they made satellites with China and the satellite is owned by Brazil.

In my opinion, only time will tell what happens with that base and if it useful to Argentina. only time will tell
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
b787 said:
For Argentina will be better just stay out of the Chinese-American rivalry, and better just buy cars, computers, even commercial aircraft from China rather than do business that have little value for them and just jeopardize their national security. the base is not even paying taxes and they are only entitled to 2 hours and 40 minutes a day as visitors.

I am not against commerce with China but it is better for Latin America to keep American, Russian and Chinese bases out of our lands, simply because that is not in our interests
Click to expand...

First, why do you assume that the tracking station agreement had little value for Argentinians? China obviously offered investments and other incentives in return for the permission to build and use such a station.

Second, a satellite tracking station is a far cry from a military base. The station has no offensive capabilities, and is not even able to defend itself should the Argentinian government decide to shut it down.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. If the US was opposed to such a deal, they would have expressed their opposition long before the deal came into public spot light.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
kwaigonegin said:
If that building is used for something NOT in the agreement than it is the duty of the argentine government to address that issue and to make those known to her own citizens.
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I agree completely. The problem would be entering the structure (with permission) and seeing that everything is as agreed. The problem lies in that the public is not aware of the detail for any inspection or how they will be done


b787 said:
I do not think you understand the problem Argentina will face, since even for the people of Argentina it is not declassify the agreement, do you think England or the USA will see it as a peaceful program?
Click to expand...

There has been a rumor (these are not substantiated or official) that in the agreement China is providing Argentina with military tracking of British and Chilean military equipment. If this is real or just hearsay, it would explaine a lot regarding the Laissez-Faire attitude of the Ministry of Defense and the negotiating members of the government.

Which make sense that one would turn a blind eye if they are getting something of value in return (i.e. information support, equipment, and fill in the blank). That includes probable payoffs to certain politicians

Lets all get back on topic

Back to bottling my Grenache
 
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