Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

latenlazy

Brigadier
"Fighter" by definition will carry connotations of maneuvering, particularly WVR relevant maneuvering as baggage. That's rather undesirable, especially when the conops of this aircraft will so heavily emphasize other domains and capabilities for the highest yield contributions to its primary mission.

We have the opportunity (if not the obligation) to reframe what aerial combat means and implies here, I think it should be taken.
I see nothing wrong with connotations for maneuvering. It’s going to have very good if not outright superb high altitude supersonic maneuvering ability. Otherwise there would be no point including several of the aerodynamic features we see on it. There’s a reason it’s got such a complicated trailing edge control device scheme, and is probably designed with advanced vortex control as a part of its flight control theory.
 
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W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interesting idea with the rotary launcher. This reminds me of my predictions for the next PLAAF plane to come out.

On the JH-XX thread, I commented on a JH-XX design in August 2023 then in March-April 2024.

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Summary of properties:

Was I kind of on the mark? ;) not too bad for guessing eh?

Many believed that I was insane for even thinking of a RF LO + supersonic + trijet + top intake design in the 23 m length, 40 ton MTOW regime. Many said that this was an "unimportant ability" to have.

I also said it could be integrated with a rotary launcher for missiles as the most efficient way of having a large payload. But we'll see soon enough.


Exactly, Exactly, Exactly

The dreamed JH-XX is now a reality

piece by piece everything follows an overwhelming logic. It's simply incredible.
 

jvodan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hence, the fact that both Shenyang and CAC built and flew functioning prototypes almost definitely suggests that both are intended for service, and the lack of a historical PLAAF/PLAN "fly-off" is a testament to that.
Yup
If there was a fly then they both read the very differently
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I see nothing wrong with connotations for maneuvering. It’s going to have very good high altitude supersonic maneuvering ability. Otherwise there would be no point to include several of the aerodynamic features we see on it. There’s a reason it’s got such complicated trailing edge control device scheme, and is probably designed with advanced vortex control as a part of its flight control system.

The idea of it being able to maneuver is very reasonable.

The idea of its primary mission/s being dependent on its maneuverability is the problem, and that is the connotation that the word "fighter" carries with it.


Instead, the term "combat aircraft" or something like it, would convey more recognition of the full system of systems it is meant to operate with, and its role as a linchpin in said construct, and the "non-maneuvering" characteristics of the aircraft (sensors, weapons, power generation, networking, processing, range) providing the most high yield contribution to said system of systems.


Someone earlier used a similar term to "control node" or something, and tbh that term also has validity to it. I'm not a fan of it because I think it is somewhat limiting as well, but something like "armed control node" may be a more accurate term for this aircraft than "fighter," though I think "combat aircraft" captures the breadth of it the best better than all others so far.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Fighter is fine. This thing is kinematically superior to what came before it, which is the entire point of a fighter. It just doesn’t optimize its kinematic performance for lower speed lower altitude regimes because it doesn’t have to. A Spitfire or Zero is probably doing tighter turns than an F-15 below 300 km/h too.
Kinematics mean different things; 300 kmh is just one aspect (not the most important one, nowhere near irrelevant one, either). Ultimately, everything happens, and we always remember that we don't live in 40k universe - most encounters are not weapons free.

In BVR, launching weapons without going into enemy NEZ, avoiding weapons and so on involves hard maneuvers - in fact, much harder to achieve. Can you pull 8-9g at M=2? And can you do it without losing 100 knots for every second of pull?
Because ultimately traditional fighter does it all; you don't win by omitting slinging capability. Just as there's no difference in off board platforms for either fighter - in fact, the further our aircraft operates, the more independent it's going to be.
Best horse archer isn't one on the largest horse with a baddest bow.

ChAD clearly tries to keep as much of it as possible, but how much can be achieved without vertical surfaces is yet to be seen.
One may omit manoeuver, but you'll use larger and more complex weapons to achieve the same effect, and in direct confrontation bvr agility won't help.

That's why I now see j-20 and potentially ShAD based air combat systems as frontline aircraft.
ChAD seems to be on top.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
The idea of it being able to maneuver is very reasonable.

The idea of its primary mission/s being dependent on its maneuverability is the problem, and that is the connotation that the word "fighter" carries with it.
Why is that a problem? It’s still designed to achieve superior energy advantage to attack its adversaries and survive counterattack. Just because the tactical context now also involves networked assets and electronic warfare capabilities doesn’t mean offensive and defensive maneuvering is no longer relevant.


ChAD clearly tries to keep as much of it as possible, but how much can be achieved without vertical surfaces is yet to be seen.
We will see if this ends up being the case but I’m reasonably confident that the design is using very advanced vortex control concepts to square this circle.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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Why is that a problem? It’s still designed to achieve superior energy advantage to attack its adversaries and survive counterattack. Just because the tactical context now also involves networked assets and electronic warfare capabilities doesn’t mean offensive and defensive maneuvering is no longer relevant.

You gotta include the rest of my post.

The point is that the maneuvering and energy advantage is among the least important characteristics of the aircraft in enabling its mission relative to the other characteristics and the system of systems it operates in, which is much more important.


It's also helpful because it educates people into understanding what modern aerial warfare will look like better than thinking of the traditional "fighter" paradigm. Instead of thinking ace combat, they will be forced to more think starcraft.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
You gotta include the rest of my post.

The point is that the maneuvering and energy advantage is among the least important characteristics of the aircraft in enabling its mission relative to the other characteristics and the system of systems it operates in, which is much more important.


It's also helpful because it educates people into understanding what modern aerial warfare will look like better than thinking of the traditional "fighter" paradigm. Instead of thinking ace combat, they will be forced to more think starcraft.
I don’t see why they’re the least important characteristics when they’re equally responsible for the offensive and defensive advantages the aircraft is designed to obtain as the other features and equally prominent in the aerodynamic design choices they adopted. Otherwise they might as well have developed a B-21 and called that a 6th gen fighter. Why do all that R&D with a novel aerodynamic configuration if kinematics were just a side show?
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
"Fighter" by definition will carry connotations of maneuvering, particularly WVR relevant maneuvering as baggage. That's rather undesirable, especially when the conops of this aircraft will so heavily emphasize other domains and capabilities for the highest yield contributions to its primary mission.

We have the opportunity (if not the obligation) to reframe what aerial combat means and implies here, I think it should be taken.
It is maneuverable at high speed. It is a fighter.

Radar is our new eyes. Everything so far is very much a fighter. A F-4 lobbing missile is as much fighter as Zero shooting mg. CHENGAD is lobbing drones.

Not long after we will have battle beyond own radar range. It fires missile guided by allies, or drone near the enemy. Radar is off, only data link on. Only then do we drop fighter name, because command takes bigger role than personal fighting. For now fighter stays.
 
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